Have you read the questions you’re asking in your OP? They’re designed to make honest people defensive. Imagine this situation: you’re by every measure a good parent, and you’re pro-spanking. You’ve never stepped anywhere near the line of child abuse, but you’ve spanked your child. And some guy on a message board pretends to want an honest discussion with you, but classifies what you’ve done as “assault” and uses loaded language like “beating a defenseless child.” Think about it.
First off, let me make clear - I never let her alone in that room while the ammo was still in that cupboard. After the third or fourth time-out that afternoon, she was trying to open the cupboard to see what was in it that was so fascinating and forbidden. Just before I spanked her I got down to try to play blocks with her, to distract her from it, and after I got down, she got up and ran over to the cupboard, and opened it again, before I could get there.
In retrospect there was a couch I may have been able to move in front of the cupboard, but in the heat of the moment I never even considered that option.
As for afterwards - She stayed with me when we went to play with the blocks. So I was happy.
That night I finally got her father to move the fucking ammo, and allow the installation of child locks. I can’t say, categorically, that she never, ever tried to open that cupboard again. I will say she didn’t try again while the ammo was in there, and that was my concern.
ETA: Sorry forgot to explain why I couldn’t take the child elsewhere: I had no car, and was out in the middle of nowhere. The neighbor to one side was anti-social (Frankly, if I’m getting called lard-ass by her and her kid, before we even meet, I’m not going to consider trying to impose on them for a nice, friendly visit.) , and the neighbor to the other side was a guest of the County at that time, IIRC.
Good Christ, but you’re an ignorant ass. To exacerbate matters, you compound your idiocy by being arrogant about your ignorance. I’m shaking my head here with every one of your posts – God, they’re pathetically laughable!
(and Doors is right: you really need to mind your own fucking business; this silly little pretense you have of asking people to share their experiences is really just silly)
I spanked my nephew just because the little bastard wouldn’t shut up while I was trying to watch South Park. The nerve of that little fucker. Well I showed him good.
And you know what the little bitch did in retaliation? He got a bunch of bruises and my brother had to take him to the hospital and those assholes want me to pay the fucking medical bills. Well next time I see that mommy’s boy I’m gonna kick his ass for good and really give him something to cry about.
How are we supposed to raise men when these pussy girly-boys cry at the drop of a hat?
Thanks for being candid in discussing this. I guess my point is that I think maybe you could have asked the child to come here in this nice room far away from the nasty cupboard and play with these cool blocks with Uncle Loki–we can have juice, too! What fun!!
You still would have had to watch her as closely, right? And she was a little girl who had no idea what was the big deal about playing in the cupboard, right? I’[m not judging what you did–we all make mistakes. But if I’m understanding you correctly, you had options that you didn’t use. You probably would have a nicer evening (and she would have) if you’d been able to do what I’m suggesting. Or am I missing something?
Answering for the only time Lilbro has ever been hit by one of our parental units.
exactly what the child did to provoke your assault -> try to overthrow the lunch table on me, raising one end of it almost half a yard before his elder sister pushed it back and I slapped him (more or less simultaneously)
how old the child was -> 3
whether your physical response was immediate, or whether you considered carefully all of your possible options -> by the time Dad realized what had happened, he’d already slapped
how you decided on the exact duration of the punishment–i.e. only three slaps, or using a open palm instead of a closed fist. -> once he realized he’d slapped his assaulter (once), he stopped
Whether you were dispassionate in adminstering the punishment, or in a state of emotional turmoil yourself -> apparently “instinctive response when someone tries to overthrow a table containing, among other items, a pot full of almost-boiling soup, on me” isn’t an option in your world.
What you felt would surely be accomplished by physical chastisement that mere verbal or non-painful punishment (deprivation of privileges, grounding, etc.) could never accomplish -> not applicable
Whether you’re satisfied that your desired lesson was learned -> yes, since he’s never assaulted another person again
Not at all sure that preventing gross physical injury, in the course of which a child gets hurt, qualifies as “punishment.” Am I interpreting what happened correctly?
I mean, if a boulder was falling on a child and you shoved him out of the path, and he got injured falling, why would anyone classify that as punishment, abuse, chastisement, etc?
Sure it is. Also “on heavy-duty hallucinogenic drugs at the time,” and “I almost laughed my liver out my nose” and a wide variety of other choices. I was merely listing the two most common and most extreme likely emotional states. Thanks for your answer.
There is nothing in the world that can unmake being called a “bad daughter” by my mother when I left her bedside to go feed my brothers.
That hurts a lot more than the one time I got spanked, because the spanking was deserved and the insult most certainly wasn’t. If I’d been legally able to, I would have left home then and there.
Middlebro never got hit. The spanking I got, I’m not even sure what it was about, I do remember that I said something that I knew was “crossing the line,” the kind of stuff that you can tell your father when you’re 31 but not when you’re 11.
We were sitting at the table, Lilbro was fidgeting, Dad told him to stop fidgeting, Lilbro tried to overturn the table on Dad. Dad was at the heading, Mom at his right, Lilbro at her right, me across from Lilbro (which is why I was able to more or less push the table back down), Middlebro between me and Dad. Dad’s reaction was completely instinctive, self-defense against someone trying to dump a table and its contents on him.
Seems to me that if she was traumatised by that little incident, then she was lacking in the understanding that for human beings there are consequences to inappropriate actions.
Parents need to teach kids that. Perhaps if you had ever effectively disciplined your kid she would have been better behaved. I suspect, in the long run, it would have been better for both of you.
Umm… I am unclear what you feel my position might be.
I was only pointing out to P.R.R. that doing spankings in private is not necessarily a subconcious admission of guilt. At least, that was what I was trying to do…
When I tried to get her to play blocks before she earned that swat I was trying to make it fun. I was very frustrated, yes - but I was making every effort to avoid taking out my frustration on her. When I put her in time out, I made it clear (I thought) with stern voice, picking her up, telling her what she did wrong, both with a simple “No,” and with a more detailed explanation: “You do not open the cupboard.” When I say I was frustrated, I was furious with my housemate, who created the whole stupid situation, but that wasn’t the girl’s fault. I did not take out any of my frustration with him out on her.
I’m not sure if you’re recognizing that she’d made a game of running or sneaking over the cupboard and accepting her time out as part of that game. I very much felt that the time out was not getting through to her.
Certainly the way I feel she took the swat was as a sign that I really meant she couldn’t play the cupboard game, and that we’d play blocks instead. And she had fun with that.
As for other rooms - this was a two story house, with wide doorways. On the ground floor there were five rooms. The kitchen, the dining room, the front parlor and toy room, the living room/play room, and then a small office area. At this time the child-proofing in this house was still in progress. And as you may have guessed - had become driven by personal issues, rather than any kind of pragmatism.
Because of the way that those wide doorways were placed through the house we could isolate as follows: The office; the kitchen and dining room; and the play room and living room.
The office contained all my housemate’s tools, paints, and glues for plastic modeling. Plus the model kits themselves, with all the small parts. The kitchen sink cabinet was where most cleaning solvents were stored. Sure there was a child lock on that door (Which was when the whole war about child locks began. Someone had to drill holes in those cabinets to install those, and they’d be dropping resale value of the property! :rolleyes: ) but I trusted them for only a short delay, not an absolute bar to the child. And, people in that house were always leaving cooking knives on tables, counters and other surfaces. If I had any other option, keeping The Monster out of the kitchen was always a first plan.
Aside from that one cupboard, the play room and living room had been kid proofed. All the outlets not in use blocked, and all those in use were covered with furniture. The only fly in the ointment had been that blasted cupboard.
The second floor was where the various bedrooms were. The girl’s bedroom was a bit spartan, and not suitable for time-outs. She’d be climbing out very quickly, and I did not trust my housemates to have the master bedroom safe for toddlers. My room was out, if she were feeling frisky - she’d begun trying to climb bookcases. Which gave me nearly as bad a heart attack as seeing her trying to open the cupboard downstairs.
The only option that I’ll agree that I missed was moving the other couch in front of the cupboard. If I were in the same situation, now, I would move that over. But at the time, I can’t even call it something I chose not to do - I never even thought of it.
I also think you may be taking my participation in your thread as being a bit more supportive of your position than I mean it to be. I don’t agree that all physical punishment is abuse, which you have as your thesis. Can it be abuse? Sure can. But it’s not always so.
OTOH, given some of my experiences this summer, I have to admit, you’d never see anyone spanking a 70 yo man*. No matter how degraded mentally he might be. Now, some of that can be attributed to the differences in risk factors: bones can become very friable as people get older, but I can’t claim that’s the sole reasoning behind the difference in treatment of what can be remarkably similar behaviors.
*For non-sexual purposes.
I have no kids and I don’t anticipate ever getting any, but I can see the potential value in a minor physical punishment to discourage behaviour that poses a much larger physical risk, i.e. a kid who is determinedly playing with a cigarette lighter gets it smacked out of his hand.
The OP in no way convinces me that I have some compelling need to decide to never use physical punishments.
Did your daddy catch you touching yourself and smack your pee-pee, PRR? Is that where 3 threads of jerkishness on your part were spawned?
Except I don’t think she was, since in his other post, he points out that as an adult, his daughter didn’t even remember it.
Actually, this appears to me to be directly in conflict with the facts (particularly when any spanking, whatever, is described as a “beating”).
The lecturer at my intro Anthropology course (whose personal specialty was child rearing), related a couple of events that occurred in her field.
Back in the 20s or 30s (when anthropologists used to collect information by going out and asking their subjects questions), one guy was studying a group of North American Indians. He asked how they disciplined their kids and was told that they lectured them and pointed out the childrens’ errors. They then asked him how the white society disciplined kids and, when spanking was mentioned, expressed shock and horror that anyone would strike a child.
Later, when anthropologists got the hang of simply observing groups, a second anthropologist revisted the same group and took notes on their form of discipline. That anthropologist noted that when a child was found to be misbehaving, the child and the adult community were called out to the center of the village where the parents spent a considerable amount of time describing the specific infraction and reviling the child as stupid, hateful, worthless, etc. in front of the assembled adults of the village.
I suspect that most kids would more easily survive a swat on the butt (even if it could not be retracted) for breaking a lamp while roughhousing than being publicly humiliated (using only words–for which an apology would be supposed to make it all better).
This is a very misguided thing to say if you are trying to draw a parallel to emotional abuse.
For one thing, we’re all adults here, with well-developed personal schemas. For another thing, I don’t know you.
A child’s view of the world is very different than an adult’s, and a parent is at the center of a child’s universe. If the people they need to count on to love them and protect them are telling them that they are worthless or burdensome or stupid or incompetent, that is most likely going to affect their sense of self and their personal security. Most people wind up, as adults, with an inner voice that parents them. People raised in emotionally abusive situations often develop emotionally abusive inner voices. It takes quite a while to turn that around, and some people never succeed.
I wasn’t beaten with a closed fist as a child, and don’t recall many welts or bruises. I was shoved into walls and held down on the ground and smacked repeatedly in the face, and there were occasional threats of grievous bodily harm and many, many broken windows and doors and telephones and radios and bookshelves. The only incident I recall that left a physical mark was a scratch on my face that bled. That sucked.
But my most traumatic memories involve the things that were said to me.
‘‘But Mom, I’ve talked to other people and they don’t agree that I’m a bad person.’’
‘‘That’s because they don’t live with you. If they had to live with you, they’d understand how bad you really are.’’
Try saying that for 17 years to a kid and you see how easily it can be unsaid.
I was beaten as a kid and a teenager, but I was also spanked. I had a very clear division in my mind even as an eight year old of the difference between them.
Spankings were generally no longer than three-five licks on a bare bottom with, usually, an open hand if it was Mother. One smack with Dad’s belt from Dad. I could choose. It was an almost ritualized process, it was not common, and it was always a result of ignoring or disobeying what I’d been told repeatedly beforehand – nothing like “don’t run in the house”, more “don’t break something and then hide it and not tell anyone” and, almost always, “don’t speak disrespectfully” and “don’t lie”.
Beatings were what happened when Mother was frustrated and depressed and Dad wasn’t around. Describing them would be unpleasant to write and unpleasant to read. We get along much better after The Ultimatum and The Shaky Heartfelt Apology For Fifteen Years Of This Stuff.
I have no children. The last time I gave a child a smack was when a two and a half year old was trying to play the Make LPN Play Fetch game with her sippy-cup. After having told her several times to stop, I took her hand in my left hand and swatted it quickly with my right, then shook my finger in her face.
“NO. MORE.”
I wasn’t her mother, but I was a childcare giver (read: my roommate had foisted her off - ah, asked me if I could feed the tyke dinner while she took a breather. I advised her mother of the situation when she came back and she thanked me for telling her.
My mother was very proprietary with corporal punishment. She did not allow the nuns to paddle me in Catholic school: “If she does anything I think is bad enough to deserve a spanking,” she said, “I’ll do it. If she does something I DON’T think is bad enough to deserve a spanking, you will wish you had never laid eyes on either of us.”
Just who the fuck do you think you are, anyway?