Nope, never crossed my mind. In fact, I believe that pretty much every word that you type, with the possible exceptions of “and,” “the” and “a,” are complete fabrications.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Yeah, Phil, he just changed his mind. He’s not a proven liar and a troll. Nope, not him. Just listen to him and he’ll tell you. Gosh, why can’t you believe him? I mean, he’s such an honest guy and has always been so straight with us in the past.
I recommend to all that he be sent to Coventry (again). Don’t feed his insane ego any longer. We should have learned our lesson by now.
Actually, O Shining One, I have been giving a great deal of thought to the matter you bring up, and I believe I have incontrovertible evidence for you.
I am still in the process of finalizing some details, and I will post my findings shortly.
-andros-
andros, I know you’re probably serious, but that was so close to simple, subtle parody that if you choose now to claim it was on purpose, you might get some people to tell you how cool you are . . . 
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Phaedrus:
You seem to have no problem with the evolution of bacteria and butterflies. You even concede that birds and reptiles can speciate once(?!), though I fail to see what would limit further evolution in your mind. Since these are all inextricably linked on a chemical and genetic level with mammals, and you simply dismiss all evidence as inadequate, this begs the question:
What would you consider to be sufficient evidence for mammalian evolution?
hardcore:
Well, DUH! Of course a species can only speciate ONCE! After that it is a different species…
Remember, evolution is all right for “lower” animals. but there is a magic wall around Mammals. Therefore, no mammals have changed their genetic information over time in response to environmental change since the Permian, when mammals first appeared. The proof is that, no matter how much variation taxonomists see in a species, they only apply sub-species names to the variants. If they find that a similar mammal ppopulation doe snot interbreed with the first species, they give it a whole new binomial. And no one ever sees the population change, even over the past three thousand years that we have been looking, or the past one hundred and fifty years that we have been thinking about Darwinism.
‘This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased. Deny it.’ cried the Spirit, stretching out its hand towards the city. ‘Slander those who tell it ye. Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse. And abide the end.’
-C. Dickens
DrF:
Thank you for the wonderful information about the interbreeding of doe snot.
Hey, typos happen.
Remember, I do most of my reading of this board during slow times at work. Sometimes its hard to complete a sentence before my supervisor finds me for a clean-up in the Paint aisle, or a customer needs help getting the sheetrock on his Honda, or to just round up the lumber carts in the parking lot…
Wait, no, I didn’t say that. I meant, to do important, um, analytical work on the, um, data we have received from a clinical site for the, um, cancer drugs we’re developing. Yeah, that’s the ticket…
Or at least you will be doing that just as soon as you’re done arguing your case before the Supreme World Court and finish patenting your human cloning technique.
…and writing my book about the Supernatural Event I experienced in my laboratory, just after I was disbarred for conduct the nature of which is unimportant. I may feel like sharing the anectdote with you some day, after I collect my royalties for inspiring the writing of “Gravity’s Rainbow” and MacGyver.
ctenophores
DrFidelius, that word bring back a flood of happy childhood memories. Dipping them out of the gulf at dusk and throwing them back, only to watch the glow. Walking the beach barefoot, discovering a colony of donax, gleefully sifting buckets full of sand away. Back home we kids would pick out the amphipods from the donax, and mom would make donax chowder. After dinner, my dad would work on a manuscript while my mom sorted out her geocoris (sp? big-eyed bug, an hemiptera).
Hello Phaedrus,
I haven’t followed any of the other threads, so could you please clarify your position on a couple things?
Specifically:
It sounds like you believe other things evolve, but not mammals. What is it about mammals that makes you believe they didn’t evolve like other creatures? Is it something from the fossil record, or a religious belief, or what? And why do you feel that mammals are resistant to natural selection, when birds and reptiles are not?
You refer to speciation of birds and reptiles, but then say they don’t evolve. I always thought speciation was a result of evolution; I guess your view is that speciation occurs without evolution. What is that you think causes speciation?
Sorry if you explained these before, I just don’t feel like wading through hundreds of posts and sorting through the infighting.
Thanks,
Revtim
What do you think about flying squirrels? Obviously they are incapable of true flight, but what they can do comes pretty close. Ordinary squirrels aren’t even capable of gliding. As of yet, we haven’t discovered a squirrel capable of true flight.
What’s so great about gliding anyway? Wouldn’t it be better to fly like a bat (or bird, for that matter)? Maybe flying squirrels are a link between ordinary squirrels and a species of flapping, soaring creatures which don’t exist yet. Flying squirrels remind me of archaeopteryx, in that they’re not capable of true flight, but may point the way to a whole taxon of creatures that are.
According to talk.origins: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
There is a beastie called a faero island house mouse that has speciated in 250 years.
I also dimly recall that some wallaby’s got loose in Hawaii and evolved to eat previously poisonous local plants. Sorry, no cite.
Before moving forward with this thread I would like to make a few comments.
First I have decided to create a “rating system” to keep track of the usefulness of this thread. I came up with this after observing posts here in this thread and posts in general around the board. This board, which is the first one I have ever participated in is entertaining and in some ways “fun”. In an effort to make it more fun I have decided to rate the posts of the posters. This may provide some posters with a competitive spirit to become more pro-active and creative in their posts. There are many ways that the board is entertaining. Sometimes it is so DAMN funny I laugh more than I do at comedians or other kinds of humour. Other times the board gives a person who is competitive an “adrenaline rush” when things get heated. What I REALLY like about it is there are a number of individuals who are, in a word, brilliant. The thing I like least are those who get their “kicks” from irritating others and “get off” on causing others pain. I consider those people sick and wish they would leave to let the rest of us enjoy the board in peace. But, such is life and you have to take the good with the bad.
I know that any rating system is purely subjective but as there are no other ways to implement it that will have to do. These points will be awarded once per post. Every now and then I will post the results (probably once per page, but more or less as required). If a post is particularly “heavy” I will give the points out ASAP. I will keep a tally and post it at the end of the thread whenever that may be.
-20 points for a flaming post
-10 points for a flaming post that is more funny than insulting
+100 points for any evidence for evolution even if not useful
+1000 points for evidence of mammals changing into other mammals in the present day.
I will begin the system after this post since I didn’t think it would be fair to rate anything without anyone being aware of it. This is not meant to put anyone down, but is, like I said for entertainment purposes.
My second comment is about David. I would like to include him in the discussion this time but he himself has already forfeited that. If he wants to change his mind at any time he is welcome to join the rest of us in an (hopefully) entertaining and fruitful discussion of evolution, its merits and shortcomings.
David has decided to ignore me (Coventry) but this isn’t the first time he and I have gone thru this. I put him on ignore a long time before he did the same to me and I gave good reasons for doing so near the end of the flat earth thread. He decided to ignore me on the flat earth thread be stuck around to torment me in an attempt to discredit me and hoping that he could get me to “lose my cool” and get me banned from the board. It didn’t work. Andros has said that when a person posts in an attempt to inflame others he/she is a troll. I agree.
I find it really offensive that David uses his position on the board to incite people to anger and then get them banned. His cute “trick” to silence people or ideas he doesn’t like. It hasn’t worked with me nor will it. I have a very even temper and rarely get “hot under the collar”. I have seen others (mostly newbies) who didn’t understand his tactics and met their demise. Klanman, Contestant #3 and KGB come to mind. I am not saying that he is responsible for their behavior, I am just pointing out events that are examples of the behavior of those “trolls”.
Another cute “trick” David uses to discredit me was to start his own thread with the intention of showing that Creationists have no proof or evidence against evolution. In the OP he said he wouldn’t find any evidence against evolution in the thread in which I was the main participant. There was and is plenty of evidence against evolution if a person cares to read thru the insults and places where I got off on a tangent.
I started this thread to give the evolutionists a fair chance to make their case and give myself a platform from which to continue the work I am currently doing in regards to evolution. I have very little family and it gives me something to do over the Holidays.
Thirdly, I realize that I need to define some terms if we are to have a fruitful discussion. When I use the word evolution I mean the unproven assumption that all life has evolved from the most humble of beginnings. I mean that mammals can change into other mammals and those fruit flies can change into birds or that monkeys (read pongoids) can change into men. Evolution is the idea that life can develop from a single cell into the complexity and diversity of all the living forms we see around us.
Fourthly, I will be “myself” from this day forward. As I have said my name is Ken, those that wish to address me as that may do so. I am not KGB, never have been, never will be. Those that insist on attributing his/her offensive posts to me and thereby insulting me will be considered flamers. As I have said I am not a homophobe, a racist, or a misanthrope. I won’t post as such now because the “game” (read character) of Phaedrus, the old man, is over. I may post like him at times for comic effect but when I do it will be deliberate.
And lastly, I need to ask the Moderator for some advice. I have been wondering about certain issues from the moment I first posted on this board. Some of these ideas are new and some old. These are hypotheticals I am currently wondering about.
First, what would happen if another newbie comes along and is a real jerk and then says he/her are me? Do I get banned as well as them?
Second, what would happen if someone gave out my address? Would they become banned? I would consider such actions very controversial. Perhaps even illegal.
Thirdly, what if a group of people starts slinging insults at each other in an attempt to have the thread thrown into the BBQ pit? Would they be allowed to get away with such behavior? I was nervous about that the whole time the flat earth thread was going on.
These are the comments. I will read the rest of the posts now and respond to them.
A final note: David said that the flat earth thread became a bear to handle when the posts reached a certain number. So I will be posting long posts instead of chopping them up for the readers. This will, if the thread continues for a while, help ease his burden and should make his job easier. And by the by, if what he said is true ( I have no doubt that it was) I will expect him to close all the threads he manages at 1000 posts. If he doesn’t for ANY reason I will conclude he had other reasons to close it. Also I was going to use my real name but since I saw that he was going to close the flat earth thread I had to act quickly and was afraid that I wouldn’t be able to make the points I did at the end of the thread. Since I had to rush like I did (something I hate) I decided to keep this screen name.
Yours,
Phaedrus 
For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.
More lies from a proven liar.
First of all, Contestant #3 and KlanMan were “banned” by other moderators from other forums for their actions in threads in those forums. Both have also since returned to the board.
Second of all, anyone who admits he “made up” a “persona” as an excuse to say bigoted things about women, gays and blacks is a troll and an idiot and really is not in a position to judge the quality of posts by others, nor to criticize the words of others. At least everyone else has the balls to own their own opinions and stand behind them. Anyone who does not is simply a waste of skin that could be usded to provide grafts to burn victims.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Hey DavidB,
I know you said you wouldn’t respond to Phaedrus in this post again. But you’re still here responding to him in third person. I think that’s really weak.
Man, if you hate the guy so much, just don’t post here. I’m sick of your opinion.
There’s always another beer.
–Triskadecamus
Actually, I think he said, “all evolutionists are invited.” In that context, ‘any’ would be synonomous with ‘all.’ But if you want to play with words, feel free.
There’s always another beer.
By this definition, you simply need to study simple biology to see ample evidence. You did this very thing when you were conceived. As did any of your offspring. Thousands of babies are born every day that develop from a single cell into complex living forms like me.
But since this will probably not suffice, I ask again:
What would you consider to be sufficient evidence for mammalian evolution?
Hardcore: I believe that further evidences concerning evolution cannot be found because the mechanism does not evidence itself in any way that is observable in nature or testable in a lab. I believe that most life forms exist in stasis but some have the ability to shift a little in order to insure the future existence of those life forms. All the evidence we have for evolution is the fact that certain life forms can shift within their genus. This is an observable fact. The idea that it is not is incorrect. The salamander that lives in the California valley can interbreed with itself along the pathway of its cline (from deme to deme to deme), which is a gradual variation, correlated with geography, in a character of a species. I believe that the limit is there because I haven’t seen any evidence other than speculation that disproves it. All life forms are linked chemically and genetically but that doesn’t mean we can postulate more than we can prove. It’s bad science to do so. All life forms have DNA but all life forms cannot interbreed and the line of speciation cuts off when two living beings cannot share or transmit genetic information. Theodosius Dobzansky
The idea that we as human beings evolve because we start at a small level is correct, but it is only correct if you consider that embryonic development is a paradigm for “evolution”. I do not. Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny has a long way to go to prove itself. Further we do not develop from a single cell. We are an example of heterogamous reproduction. We need two cells, not one, to develop.
“Evolution” has fallen err to the fallacy of composition from its’ beginning. Just because a finch can change into a different species does not mean that all of life can, neither does it mean that a finch could continue to speciate into an eagle. When you use logical induction in science it can only take you so far. If you push the envelope too far you err. If I say that lead melts at 1000 c. and then test several samples of lead I can use induction to say that lead melts at 1000 c. but if I then say that ALL metals melt at 1000 c. I am wrong.
In order to think that mammals can change into a different species I would need to see something like a clinal variation that leads to instances like the salamander in California or the Herring seagull. Some kind of clinal variation should do the trick. After all we see other life forms do it from bacteria to birds. Why do not mammals do it? As you know I reason they don’t have to, the mammalian brain is sufficiently developed that mammals do not need that mechanism to insure their future existence in a meaningful way. Some kind of isolation should do the trick as well. There are many kinds of isolation that can “force” speciation, everything from ecogeographical that works for sycamore trees, Platanus occidentalis and Platanus orientalis to behavioral isolation of the Genus Uca (crabs).
DrFidelius: Two things, you are mostly correct in your post (I disagree about the observability of speciation). Your sig line was so good it gave me chills! Which Dickens novel is that from? Tale of Two Cities? Your post about working for a hardware store was GREAT!!!
Revtim: Thanks for your questions. I hope my answers to hardcore answered your questions. If they didn’t let me know.
Boris B: Yes I agree that flying squirrels could give a person the idea that they are a midway point between birds and mammals. But as I have not seen any hard evidence for such things I have to stick with my original hypothesis. Good post! Flying squirrels remind me of Bullwinkle !
Keith B: Outstanding!!! I will dive into the matter ASAP! If you are correct it would punch all kinds of holes in my theory and send me back to the drawing board! Before looking at it though I must say it seems improbable. We do not have ANY instances of “evolution” taking place in such a high life form in such a short period of time. If it is a real instance the biology text and all the science journals would be full of the story behind it. This does not mean it’s not true and I will investigate it thoroughly.
A note: Several posts have made me want to create a couple of new categories. Posts that are funny without referencing me (DrF’s on the hardware store, Mr. Thin Skins, and hardcore’s) and posts that aid me (beeruser’s). I guess funny posts that don’t have anything to do with me would be 100 points but since they really don’t offer proof I’ll put them in parentheses. Posts that defend me have nothing to do with proving evolution either so I guess they should get 100 points in brackets as well. Anyone who then flames those who flame those posters that aid me will also have flaming points added to their score. Posters who make funny posts that don’t reference me will get those points but they won’t be subtracted from their total score like they will when they post evidence for/against evolution.
Yours,
Phaedrus
For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.