Iran Obama's 'only chance of success'

Great Debates
121

‘US to send secret military teams to Iran, other nations’
New York, May 25, (PTI)
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/71445/us-send-secret-military-teams.html

Top US Commander in Middle East, Gen David H Petraeus, has signed a secret directive ordering that ‘Special Operations’ troops be sent to countries such as Iran for reconnaissance, a move that may lead to possible strikes against Tehran if tensions over its nuclear ambitions escalate.

excerpt from article.
“The Obama administration insists that for the moment, it is committed to penalising Iran for its nuclear activities only with diplomatic and economic sanctions,” the newspaper said.

“Nevertheless, the Pentagon has to draw up detailed war plans to be prepared in advance, in the event that President (Barack) Obama ever authorises a strike.”
The Defence Department “can’t be caught flat-footed,” said one Pentagon official.
The daily noted that while the previous Bush administration had approved some clandestine military activities, the present directive intended to make such efforts more systematic and long term.
article continues…

so, business as usual, preparing for war, just in case, whilst some say the battle plans are already being laid out, not if, but when…?
its just that the excuse to wage war needs to appear righteous…
say what?

Zan

122

I agree.

123

on what exactly do you agree.?

lets be specific here, say what you mean, mean what you say… right, just as you told me.

‘say what’ was a throw off to English Colonialism, it was generally patronising, if i had of included, my dear man, or Jolly ho, would it have been clearer?
Just whose Empire are we talking about here? one long faded, or one just now being wasted? squandered?

lets address the facts, stop diking around.

CIA Black Ops, perfectly fine and dandy to violate another countries Sovereignty…?
only if 'we do it, to Them, not Them… to the USA…?

If they dare do similar to us, its as good as declaring war upon us, got to be worth an invasion or 2, at least a serious bombing…
Just to show them who is in fact, Boss…
Up the Flag and all that, right, ‘my good man’ ?

Zanthor

124

I don’t know. I have absolutely no idea what you’re saying or what you are trying to say. Your comments about “business as usual” didn’t make any sense, which has been true of most of what you’ve said in this thread. So far, you’ve preferred to make vague, impenetrable comments about empires and what ‘some say’ instead of responding to obvious point - like the fact that the U.S. is not capable of invading or holding Iran, and it’s not about to try. It is not possible.

Here’s another article about the directive yesterday.

125

Business as usual is directly from Haliburton, Blackwater, etc, Boeing etc etc,
PPl who make sell and deliver death dealing weapons of War…
sell them world wide, make millions in perpetrating war…
simply and probably just cos its good for business as usual.
Just as i said, which went right over your head…
why is this so?
am i making this up?

answer me this, if your Country did not sell death weapons world wide, if OIL was sold in Euros, as it should be, would you be as all so dictating as you seem to be now?.
could you afford to be always the aggressor…?

make no sense?
sure, it figures.

126

Say what, my dear man? Jolly ho!

Some of it, yes. You’re not making up the fact that there are wars. You’re pretty much making up the idea that the U.S. is about to go to war with Pakistan and Iran, and you’re insisting on believing it despite the facts.

If oil isn’t sold in Euros, how do people in the European Union pay for it? I think you’re trying to say something about currency there, but I don’t know what. And while it may be wrong to sell weapons, the U.S. isn’t the only country that does that.

It’s pretty freaking obvious that a stronger and more powerful country is more likely to be aggressive. That’s how strength works. Governments will try do to just about anything they feel they can get away with. That’s a universal fact as far as I can tell.

I’m glad it figures for one of us. Meanwhile, is it surprising that the U.S. is doing reconnaissance work in Somalia, which has been a lawless region and a home for militants for a long time? I have to say it isn’t. Or that it’s doing intelligence work in Iran - a nation with which it’s had hostile relations for 30 years and which has been fairly credibly accused of both terrorist connections and trying to develop nuclear weapons? Again, I don’t see the surprise there. And yes, the hostility between the U.S. and Iran is based on U.S. support for the Shah in the 1950s. I know. That was wrong, and so are a lot of other things the U.S. does. Does that mean a war against Iran is imminent? No. If you compare this to the period before the war in Iraq, it’s not even remotely similar.

127

Hip Hip and all that., Jolly good show, and up the Khyber ( Pass ) , say what?.
We are only there to ‘lend a hand,’ right?
its only for their own good.
right?
we are so benevolent, goodness just oozes out of us…

about to go to war with Pakistan, possibly, perhaps probably.
each day i read news that indicated the US is cranking up the urgency to gain control.
try this.
AP source: US seeks Pakistan crackdown on Taliban
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/ap-source-us-seeks-536113.html
excerpt.
WASHINGTON — Two top Obama administration officials have told Pakistan that it has only weeks to show real progress in a crackdown against the Pakistani Taliban, a senior U.S. official said Wednesday.
The U.S. has put Pakistan “on a clock” to launch a new intelligence and counterterrorist offensive against the group, which the White House alleges was behind the Times Square bombing attempt, according to the official.
article continues…

so, hip hip, Hooray, Pakistan is ‘on the clock’
Given notice by America.

or else, just what exactly?
Pakistan has 2 weeks to achieve control, America has had how many years in a country they invaded, where they have total control of that countries airspace,
yet have achieved absolute Zero progress…

and Pakistan has to achieve ‘control’ in 2 weeks?
What I said was, oil should should be sold in $ Euros, NOT $US.
let the West pay for what it consumes, fairly…
not continue to live on the blood of other peoples it is able to waste to continue absolute Sovereignty?

Is this not one of the main reasons the West invaded Iraq, Saddam was abut to switch his countries oil trade to Euros?
abandon the US dollar as the bench mark?

quote.
It’s pretty freaking obvious that a stronger and more powerful country is more likely to be aggressive. That’s how strength works. Governments will try do to just about anything they feel they can get away with. That’s a universal fact as far as I can tell.
end quote.
But we are supposed to be Christan…
love your enemy, and all that…

i despise aggression as beneath contempt, no matter who does it, them or us.
we are supposed to be the good guys.
i would like to see just a glimmer of us acting like it is true, no matter how idealistic. even a small gesture of goodness would be encouraging, to them.
instead of unleashing limitless amounts of war against them…

Give peace a Chance, ( John Lennon )
it is the only absolute truth/s.
love your enemy, do not kill, do good rather than harm etc etc etc.

all else amounts to greed, self preservation,
definitely not Holy.

as to the next bit of your post.
you insist on seeing it all only from your POV, definitely not theirs.
if you were them, you would say we are the true terrorists, are scum,
if i were them, i would agree…

128

Nope. No matter how many times you say this, it’s still going to be wrong. And unless you can tell us where the troops to support an invasion are going to come from, it’s not only wrong, it’s ridiculous. The U.S. has given billions of dollars in aid to Pakistan over the years, including $7.5 billion in October. It’s not going to turn around and invade a few months later. (And yes, I know - the U.S. supported Saddam against Iran in the '80s.)

More Predator strikes, maybe. Less aid money, perhaps. An invasion - not on the table.

And I said “what do Europeans buy oil with?”

No, it’s not. To begin with, which invasion are you talking about?

Says who?

I don’t think you understand my POV or anybody else’s, or the facts of the situation.

129

But he didn’t have nukes and Pakistan does; which is another reason there’s no chance of an invasion now or in the future.

130

I should’ve just said that. (Maybe I did say it in one of the recent threads about this; lately we’ve had a few people insist that either Iran or Pakistan is about to be attacked.) While we’re listing the reasons this would never happen, we can add that it would further destabilize Afghanistan and cause chaos in India, which also has nuclear weapons, along with the problems it could cause for the Middle East and China. This is why Pakistan may be the most complicated political situation in the world.

Zanthor, you seem to have come to the conclusion that I’d support an invasion of Iran or Pakistan because I think you’re wrong on a lot of points. I don’t. I would not support an attack on either country. I didn’t support the war on Iraq either, and like a lot of people here I knew that war was going to happen because all the indications were there. I was also against the Afghanistan war at the time it started; since then I’ve acknowledged it was probably necessary and that most of the goals are a good idea, but I still have no idea if they are achievable.

With all of that said, I think your understanding of the facts here is very limited, and most of your arguments are made up of vague generalizations about the U.S. and other things.

131

I have made no conclusions about you, you flatter yourself, this is as i have repeatedly told you, is NOT about what you nor I think.
It is about what we are doing to ‘Them’…,
get over yourself, plz…

Sure, its all make believe. a new war is not going to happen, just as you say.
what dream are you in, is there any spare room for other want to be escapists???
I could do with a break from your countries killing spree…

Why then does your country so threaten a new war, every breath it breaths…?
perhaps you could do us all a favour, stop breathing for a while,
let the world bury its many dead peaceably, grieve honourably without the cruise missiles and Drones hovering over them every other moment

This is make believe too, right?
NYT’s Friedman Rejects Iran Nuke Deal

By Robert Parry
May 27, 2010

Washington’s new “group think” on Iran – that the only possible approach is a heightened confrontation followed by “regime change” – is being shaped by the same opinion leaders who charted the way into the bloody disaster in Iraq and paid no career price.

excerpt from article.
On Wednesday, New York Times’ columnist Thomas L. Friedman rejoined the gang of tough-guy pundits by roughing up the leaders of Brazil and Turkey for daring to negotiate an agreement with Iran that would have it ship about half its low-enriched uranium out of the country and thus spur hopes for a peaceful settlement.

To Friedman, this deal was “as ugly as it gets,” the title of his column. However, others might think that seven-plus years of carnage in Iraq – the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, children with limbs blown off, and the 4,400 dead American soldiers and their grieving families – might be uglier.

But not Friedman, who like many of his fellow millionaire pundits cheered on the Iraq War as the only possible way to deal with Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, just as they now are demanding “regime change” in Iran, rather than an agreement to ensure that Iran doesn’t produce a nuclear bomb, which Iran vows it doesn’t want anyway.
article continues.

try this also.

Pakistani president Asif Ali Zardari said the Taliban was created by CIA and ISI. Naturally, this story was all but ignored by the corporate media in the U.S.

Investigative journalist Wayne Madsen documents the special relationship between the CIA, ISI, and the Taliban.

132

If you’re not talking to me I’ll be happy to ignore what you’re saying.

I agree with your agreement with me.

Discussing sanctions and aid pacts is not threatening war. The U.S. has not threatened to invade Pakistan or Iran. You are interpreting every action in the most aggressive and militaristic way possible. Compare Clinton’s words to the speech where Bush made the case for war against Iraq.

What do I care what Tom Friedman thinks? He spent two years insisting Iraq was going to turn around any minute. He’s one columnist.

While I don’t know how credible that claim is, you do know what the ISI is, right? It’s the Pakistani intelligence service. I think Pakistan was the only country in the world that acknowledged the Taliban as a legitimate government when it ran Afghanistan.

133

The simple fact remains.
no matter how much you want to dress it up, sanitise it, make it wholesome as red white and blue as apple pie,
we are invaders, we kill these ppl.
in their country.
we are invaders.
prob best called parasites.
FYI
One death inflicted upon any person, no matter who they are, is one death too many!!!
we Invade, simply to carry out regime change, we kill and be killed.
for just what exactly?
Simply to carry out one more regime change,
for our benefit…
certainly not theirs, if you think this is all for their benefit, you are dreaming red white and blue, totally divorced from the true reality

Such as these are in the worlds papers daily…

NYC plot prompts U.S. to plan Pakistan attack
White House eyes retaliation if Taliban pull off major strike inside U.S.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37410800/ns/world_news-washington_post

excerpt.
updated 4:32 a.m. ET May 29, 2010

WASHINGTON – The U.S. military is reviewing options for a unilateral strike in Pakistan in the event that a successful attack on American soil is traced to the country’s tribal areas, according to senior military officials.

Ties between the alleged Times Square bomber, Faisal Shahzad, and elements of the Pakistani Taliban have sharpened the Obama administration’s need for retaliatory options, the officials said.
article continues…

More importantly, what you fail to address, or seem to totally NOT understand is such as this.

Quote
“The Soviet intervention was a golden opportunity for the CIA to transform the tribal resistance into a holy war, an Islamic jihad to expel the godless communists from Afghanistan. Over the years the United States and Saudi Arabia expended about $40 billion on the war in Afghanistan. The CIA and its allies recruited, supplied, and trained almost 100,000 radical Mujahideen from forty Muslim countries including Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Algeria, and Afghanistan itself. Among those who answered the call was Saudi-born millionaire right-winger Osama bin Laden and his cohorts” [2009] Afghanistan, Another Untold Story by Dr. Michael Parenti
end Quote.

You do understand we are reaping what we have sown do you not?
simple question really, wonder if you will be brave enough to address it…
We chose the most radical fundamentalist extremists religious ppl to arm, equip, etc.
and now other ppl are paying with their blood.
What cost to us?
and.

Afghans believe US is funding Taliban

Intellectuals and respected Afghan professionals are convinced the west is prolonging conflict to maintain influence in the region

excerpt.
It’s near-impossible to find anyone in Afghanistan who doesn’t believe the US are funding the Taliban: and it’s the highly educated Afghan professionals, those employed by ISAF, USAID, international media organisations – and even advising US diplomats – who seem the most convinced.

One Afghan friend, who speaks flawless English and likes to quote Charles Dickens, Bertolt Brecht and Anton Chekhov, says the reason is clear. “The US has an interest in prolonging the conflict so as to stay in Afghanistan for the long term.”
continues…

Zanthor

134

Wait, there is more.
free.

Manufacturing Consent For Attack On Iran:
U.S. General Accuses Iran of Helping Taliban in Afghanistan:

The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal, says there is “clear evidence” that Iran is providing weapons and training to Taliban fighters in the war-torn country.

and

Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran:

The submarines of Flotilla 7 – Dolphin, Tekuma and Leviathan – have visited the Gulf before. But the decision has now been taken to ensure a permanent presence of at least one of the vessels.

The Wests War drums beating, rhythmic constant beat, no where near at a frenzy yet,
go back to sleep,

135

There have been allegations that Iran has been training and/or arming the Taliban for years now.

136

and this is seriously bad, how so? exactly?
should they not try to defend themselves against us?
if you were them, would you do different?
its all relative… you do not see this?
you or them, both the same?
just the polarity different extremes,
both wrong, both claiming innocence???

137

What? You inhibit debate when you post (and expect replies) in sentence fragments.

138

Zanthor, I can’t understand a word you’re saying. Is English your second language? Because maybe you should go back to school and kick your english teacher in the nuts.

139

balderdash./
you are free to answer any question i have posted,
i will meet you on any level you choose, or are capable of being on
BTW
i don’t like sentences, i like sound bites, is this too much of a problem for you?
never mind, just address the basic fundamental question.
Do we, the West kill too Wantonly? recklessly?
I would say yes,

Sure, if you want to commence this debate from another alternate viewpoint , fine with me.

Show me what you got,
i promise to listen, consider. reply

140

Yes, it is a problem. If you don’t care about communicating with your audience, why should your audience care about communicating with you?

What’s the purpose of your posting here? Are you trying to change people’s minds? Is it on an important topic? Then you should care enough to try to write as coherently and clearly as you possibly can.

If you refuse to write clearly and coherently, then that’s evidence that you don’t really care about the topic, and don’t care if your audience understands you.