It’s funny how in this post you accuse me of ‘pontificating’ on generalities. You have yet to present a single piece of factual evidence or write anything that is more than a mere slogan.
Yes, Iraqis have paid a huge price. And you are entitled to your opinion, but asserting it over and over does not equate to me ignoring facts. You’d have to present some for me to ignore them. I haven’t ignored anything. Yes, currently Iraq is a failed state and yes a lot of Iraqis have died. I haven’t ignored that.
When you’ve got more than slogans I’ll be more than happy to read what you have to present.
That aid will be misappropriated the instant troops are gone. That’s part of the reason troops are there. They’d be fighting over the aid, and then we’d be using the aid as a method by which to control them, which isn’t terribly effective.
I don’t understand this concept. Why are people required to respond to moronic hyperbole? I skipped a whole lot of posts from two of the main posters on this page because it was just hystrionic nonsense. Appeals to emotion. Why should anyone have a responsibility to engage that kind of stuff?
I think xtisme is doing an admirable job. I already voiced the parts where I disagree with him, and the rest I pretty much agree.
I think all of us here wish we’d never invaded Iraq, but that’s a moot point and not even worth discussing IMV.
No person is blinder than those who do not want to see. I have posted a link to a Wikipedia page which shows Iraq is among the top 5 failed states in the world but you do not dispute that, you just ignore it. It might be difficult for you to digest but it is a FACT not a slogan.
That fallacy definitely doesn’t mean what you think it means. I’m not assuming anything. I am ignoring hystrionic rhetoric. If they want to get down to real arguments I’ll pay attention.
Yes.
Ok, so tell me what’s your plan to stop the United States from invading Iraq in 2003? If you know of a way to stop something that’s already happened I’m all ears. If not, the rest is just onanism and completely uninteresting.
I never argued against that. This is why there is nothing to discuss with you. You keep repeating your ONE SINGLE fact over and over. If Iraq wasn’t a failed state it wouldn’t need to be rebuilt now would it?
Would Japan and Germany be considered failed states in 1951? No one has even addressed this question. I would still like an answer to it.
Here, it’s that a position you do not already hold cannot be anything more than
The discussion is about what we have a responsibility to do now and in the future. You did just admit we have such a responsibility, didn’t you? Are you willing to discuss what it entails or aren’t you?
Yes, precisely, welcome to the thread you have been posting in. Glad we are now on the same page. So discussing what is happening NOW and not what happened six years ago, is what this thread is about.
So what we agree on:
The United States bears a responsibility to the people of Iraq due to the fact that we broke their country.
Ok, now what? What do YOU think that responsibility should entail? But first, answer whether you think that Iraq is completely broken, whether we can salvage any success from it, and whether or not you think they are on the brink of a civil war.
YogSosoth’s argument that American troops would not be required if they were not on the brink of a civil war is a very good one.
Then what was that crap from you about how to go back in time and prevent the invasion? :mad:
IOW, you aren’t willing to discuss it *yourself *after all. A disappointment but not a surprise.
The argument that a partition of the country cannot be prevented, and is already well along despite what anyone might like, and the military’s only useful role can be to continue to facilitate it as peacefully as possible, and the US must simply deal with the fact of an independent Kurdistan, an Iran-dominated Shiastan, and a Saudi-dominated Sunnistan is an even better one, and has been for quite some years.
Well a Federal partition of Iraq may very well be a good thing in the long run. I kind of hope people are thinking in that direction. I know Joe Biden was in the campaign. An independent Kurdistan is not necessary, a three state solution under a single federal government is also viable.
Yea, this is meaningless hyperbole. There is some sort of hateful malicious intent in your mind on the part of the American government that is nebulous to me. It seems very clear and meaningful to you, but it isn’t to me.
Well, while one can say that the situation in Cyprus will never be solved the important thing is that for peace sake big foreign powers need to stay away and allow entities like the UN to keep the de facto status of separation from becoming a violent one.
Great. America has taken a functioning country and six years later it is a failed state. Something to be proud of.
I have already answered that. The answer is tha NO. Japan and Germany were NOT failed states in 1951. There was no civil war. There was no violence. The Governments were in control. They were safe to live and travel. Industry and economy were being rebuilt. Only an extremely ignorant person would say the situation in Japan or Germany in 1951 resembled, even remotely, that of Iraq today.
I agree with you, but the timing on letting it go is important.
Also Cyprus is a bit different from Iraq. In Iraq it’s America vs the Iraqi people in terms of the people vying for power. In Cyprus it was Greece and Turkey trying to use it as a client state. (I know little about Cyprus so feel free to correct me) The difference being that America isn’t competing against a separate foreign power.
I agree we should get out of Iraq, but I don’t agree that it should be without condition.
The notion that Iraq was functioning before 2003 is a bit of a canard. Yes, it was functioning BETTER than it is now, but it wasn’t that great. If the failed state index was in place in 2002, you can bet your ass Iraq would have been on it, the same being true in 1991 or 1985.
I didn’t say it resembles. It’s called a ‘question’, and your need to insult is kind of funny considering I asked a question and didn’t make an assertion. See people ask questions when they don’t know the answer to something, only an extremely ignorant person doesn’t know that.
I’m sorry if I missed your prior answer to that question. Did you back it up with cites or did you just assert it? If it’s easy to know the answer then someone who knows the answer should surely be able to come up with cites very easily.