Mr. Kipling would agree.
Why the hell should we get a say in what the Iraqis do with any reparations money? Since they’re capable of democracy on American terms imposed at the barrel of a gun, why wouldn’t they be capable of spending whatever money we send them wisely?
We don’t get a say in the future of Iraq. We just have to foot the bill.
Do you have evidence to back up that assertion? It runs counter to most neutral accounts of Iraq’s functional level before the war that I’m familiar with. Not degree of political freedom, but degree of societal function, with factors like availability of electricity, consumer goods, education, and safety on the streets considered.
I certainly don’t believe it qualified as a ‘failed state’ prior to our invasion.
I disagree.
Indonesia is on the list of failed states. You think Iraq was better off than Indonesia?
Why?
No it is not. Stop making shit up. Please.
I suppose every country is on the list of failed states because it is just a classification by the measure in which they fulfill certain criteria but Indonesia is not on the top 20 list of failed states while Iraq has been consistently since the invasion among the top 5.
Sigh.
Over half the Iraqis in college were women before we took over. They could wear western clothes if they chose. Women worked outside the home, drove cars and had opportunities. The electric and plumbing were not great. If you managed to capture Sadaam or his kids attention it could go badly for you. The country was under US sanctions and medicines were hard to come by. Commerce was limited. That was largely due to us and the UN.
The utter stupidity of taking the first and last elements of a list sorted by a certain criteria and claim they are the same is just astounding. I would draw the conclusion that of the 60 countries listed Indonesia is the best off and Iraq is among the worst five. But you think it means they are all the same? What kind of bullshit is that? The utter stupidity of your affirmation is just astounding.
Take a sorted list of all the countries on earth ordered by per capita gross domestic product. The richest countries would be at the top. And the “least rich countries” would be at the bottom. But since they are all on the list you would claim they are all equally rich or equally poor. I see.
Still following along here (gods know why), and don’t really want to get heavily into this discussion, but just wanted to point out a couple things. From your link, mswas:
I wanted to point this out because what this seems to be an index of states most AT RISK OF FAILURE. Of which, Iraq is supposedly 5th. So…it’s not really about FAILED state, per se…but states with the potential to fail in the future. Also, I’ll just point out the Egypt and Israel are both on that list as well…neither of which, IMHO, are likely to fail any time soon. Interestingly, Iran is ALSO on that list (as are another of states that would probably be a bit surprised they are supposedly on the cusp of failing…or, as is being claimed in this thread are already ‘failed states’ :p).
Anyway, carry on. This is a simply fascinating discussion…
-XT
That’s a list of states based on indicators of instability and potential instability, not a list of how ‘failed’ a state is.
:sigh:
Indonesia is declared “borderline”. You are ignoring the color coding. Iraq was/is in the critical stage for the last 5 years.
:smack: You guys are right…I missed that too. It’s on this page here. Niger is actually the cut off for the critical states. I knew I should have just stayed out of here!
-XT
Ahem. Just where the *hell *have you *been *since 2003? The partitioning process is nearly complete. It was, as it has been elsewhere when it was at least a managed process, a very predictable response by the people to the absence of any central power able to maintain order. Petraeus, to give him credit, realized that helping the process go to completion was the only approach left to reducing the death rate, even if he has had to join the pretense that “the surge worked” instead.
His opinion has only slightly more effect to it now than it did then. It’s a fact of life, and has been for some time now. It wasn’t a “campaign”, btw, just an attempt to make the least-worst of the mess.
You might go find out what the Kurds think of that. It isn’t up to you, Obama, or really anybody else but them.
Well it’s a good thing you are astounded by something I never said then. Bail that straw and astound yourself as much as you like. I can’t even respond to this anymore than that because you are not even responding to what I’ve said you’re just making shit up and claiming I said it.
All I said was that Indonesia is on the list. I didn’t say it was the same. I just asked where you thought Iraq would rate on the list prior to that.
snip irrelevant pedantry about reading tables.
Actually it is specifically the failed state index. My question was about where Iraq would come on the list in comparison to Indonesia which capped off the list that I was using. I never drew any equivalencies whatsoever, I just used Indonesia as a placemarker.
I really wish people would pay attention to the give and take before they start doling out advice. It’s really getting tedious around here when people don’t pay attention to a back and forth that’s gone on for several posts.
Is it a fact of policy or just a fact of people on feet on the ground? There’s a difference. I’m perfectly aware that people have left their neighborhoods.
When he was running for President, which is what i was referring to, was certainly a ‘campaign’.
Actually it’s up to Turkey more than it is up to the Kurds.
Millions have fled the country leaving their homes. Will they come back? Will they be allowed to come back? What is in Iraq for them now? Who the hell has a clue what will happen in the next few years.