IIRC there were a handful of cruise missile attacks that needed Rummy’s ok beforehand because they knew some civies were going to boom along with the target. Not necessarily the same as what you’re talking about, but I thought I’d throw it out there.
[sub]How about that Heat Trade?[/sub]
Yeah I’m so anti-American it hurts.
You say
WWII I’ll give you but you were by no means on your own and that was a war of necessity not altruism. Joining in the slaughter of WWI? Korea? Vietnam/Cambodia? Grenada? Numerous disgraceful events in South America? Hell even Afghanistan(I agreed with that one BTW) was a act of self defense and not liberation. Iraq was a power play in the ME it had nothing whatsoever to do with liberation.
None of this is out of the ordinary for any country BTW. The US being bigger and more involved with things just gets caught up more. I’m not criticising the present day US for these past events(apart from Iraq). I’m laughing at you for seemingly buying the fluffy wooly headed BS image of foreign policy decisions that governments the world over sell their people.
Sniping is easy, TYM. Why don’t we ask some of those muslims in the former Yugoslavia how they feel about the United States? Or the eastern europeans that were behind the iron curtain? Or the millions in Afghanistan and Iraq that are glad we are there?
Going into short memory territory…how about the French? The Australians? The Filipinos? I could go on, but it would be a further waste of my time.
Uh, yes I do see the obvious logical connection between people who “root for the insurgents” and the people who “wish for US troops to die”. I recognize that the word “insurgent” accurately describes someone who is fighting US troops. A point that is completely unrelated to the conversation trail I posted, and therefore my original concern. You know, the one where you said “rooting for the terrorists”.
It’s my turn to be honestly confused. You do realise the posts are logged, right? If you post “X implies Y” and someone posts “X does not imply Y” and then you post “but how can you say that Z does not imply Y?” you will get caught out.
I’m complaining about the clear implication in your posts that “terrorist = someone fighting US troops”. I’m not complaining about the statement “insurgent = someone fighting US troops”, because that is fucking obvious.
Look, I don’t wave a sparkler everytime I see a bombed-out convoy on TV. I trhink the word “rooting” in the OP was misleading. I’d like nothing better than for the invasion to be over before another Johnny Farmboy dies.
However
What I was trying to convey in the OP, and what posters like Evil One are certainly not dissuading me from, is that the US is the bad guy in this invasion. And I’d like to see bad guys lose.
Right now, a disparate bunch ranging from ex-Baathists to Iraqi patriots to Syrian jihaadis are the only ones working towards that end. Sometimes you have to root for the lesser of two evils, I guess. We just disagree as to who that lesser of two evils is.
Oh, and Shodan, there is no justice in the world. Deal.
I’m not sitting here typing with a flag draped around my shoulders. I am fully aware that the United States has acted in its own best interest in the past and will continue to do so.
The war in Iraq can also be put under the banner of self-defense in the long term. As I have referenced, the long term strategy is to provide a counter example to the people of the middle east.
Military spending alone didn’t break the Soviets…coming up on the short end of quality of life comparisons did as well.
That said…millions of people around the world are better off because of the United States. Only the most rabid and deluded would dispute that.
I don’t approve or disapprove of what we’ve done in foreign nations as a blanket policy. I evaluate each on its own merits. Also, I wasn’t aware that we invaded Eastern Europe; refresh my memory. Afghanistan (which I approved of) is going down the tubes, primarily due to our being distracted by the horribly conceived and executed Iraq debacle.
Grenada? Panama? Also, we fought a guerilla insurgency in the Phillipines for some time. When did we invade Australia?
I doubt it. Remember 9/11/01? Aggressive act of a global bully, my aching ass. Far, far better for us to be over there killing them than for them to be over here killing us.
Absolutely right. There’s the entire middle and upper class of the US for a start. 
I for one don’t dispute it. Just like there are millions who are worse off because of the US too.
Korea & Two world wars vs a habit of propping up dictatorships and practicing gunship diplomacy - at some point the + side of that equation won’t be enough to tilt the balance anymore.
You mean the horrific act of terrorism on US soil that had practically nothing to do with Iraq?
9/11 Has what the fuck to do with Iraq other than another excuse for your corrupt government?
Yes, in the sense that it will be the reason we’ll require even more dilligent “self-defense” at home. These fools espouse about bringing the fight to “them” and keeping it away from “us”, which couldn’t be further from the truth. Let’s ask Madrid and London how taking out SH made us all safer, and how it will protect us in the future.
That said…millions of people around the world are worse off because of the United States. Only the most rabid and deluded would dispute that.
A fact I have never disagreed with and never would.
You throw out accusations of Anti-Americaness very easily BTW. Can I not disagree with US decisions and over the top patriotism without being branded as anti-American? I’ve a lot of problems with Irish politics and people as well does that make me Anti-Irish*? What is it with so many Americans? A lot seem to be obsessed with people being Anti-this and that. Labeling everyone and anyone as being irreversibly biased just for disagreeing with you.
You sure as hell gave me that impression when I read the post I first replied to
Nice bit of applepiety, Evil One. Wouldn’t want to shatter your fantasies by clicking here.
Please enlighten me as to who that would be and how the United States is directly responsible.
As an aside…do you think that the actions of the United States since WWI have hurt more people that have been helped?
Would an insurgent victory lead to significant benefits for the Iraqi people? Or merely be an “in your face” to American hubris, simultaneous with the start of the real struggle for power? Would the hamstringing of American foreign policy for the next decade and a half prevent US led interventions that you might approve of?
Even trying to look at it from an objective, non-American point of view I can see no actual benefits to Iraq (or really the world) from an insurgency victory. And I am no fan of the present administration.
Of course you can. Perhaps I was a little harsh with you because of my disdain for the OP and his ilk. I apologize.
I know I’m fighting a losing battle by mentally jousting with people who think that the United States is the root of all evil in the world. Nothing I say here will disturb that fantasy.
No.
Would an insurgent victory lead to significant benefits for the Iraqi people? Or merely be an “in your face” to American hubris, simultaneous with the start of the real struggle for power? Would the hamstringing of American foreign policy for the next decade and a half prevent US led interventions that you might approve of?
Even trying to look at it from an objective, non-American point of view I can see no actual benefits to Iraq (or really the world) from an insurgency victory. And I am no fan of the present administration.
Vietnam.