oooops, bodypoet :o
[sub]preview, dammit, preview[/sub]
z
I’m a SAHM too.
I also don’t watch Oprah and have never read a romance novel.
I saw that long Oprah thread, in fact, but didn’t bother to even open it 'cause I figured it wouldn’t interest me. Just as well though because I’m so prone to hijacking [sub](I’m trying to be better, guys, bear with me)[/sub] that if I had seen one of the jabs at SAHM’s, I would have responded to that and not the OP.
Yes, bodypoet, I can definitely relate. Unfortunately, I’m not as self-assured as others, and the status that society assigns to it and the stereotyping does bother me. But the day to day living of it is a dream come true. I do, however, work 3 nights a week. I need to get out of the house and relate to grownups for a little while. I honestly don’t think I could only do the SAHM thing. I agree that everyone has to find what’s best for them.
[sub]And I too am anxiously awaiting the day when my house will be suitable for company.[/sub]
Mmm-hmm. Also our thieves, rapists, murderers, bores, boors, bullies and those who just seem to spend their lives spreading a low-grade form of misery.
Fine. So you’re both doing an absolutely equal job of it then. Gotcha.
This seems to be the overwhelming happy conclusion of the thread.
Well I don’t agree with it.
For each family group, one choice is better than the other. I can’t believe that in 100% of cases, the better choice has been taken.
I even doubt that there is a single choice that is best for all the people involved in the family. Some of the individuals are normally going to have to have to make sacrifices.
Somehow it becomes taboo to say it. Well I’m sorry, but it’s illogical to pretend otherwise.
The sacrifice may involve staying at home or it may involve working. Maybe one of your children needs a lot of parental attention whilst another needs to see two strong working role models. Who wins there?
I think you all want to have a close look at what Hama is saying. People do what they do. They don’t always like it, but sometimes tough choices have to be made. And sometimes someone may make a self-sacrificial choice. Or maybe they don’t even realise that there are alternatives. If they then want to sit around watching TV and eating bon-bons because they feel too low to clean with a spring in their step, then I can understand that.
Because at the end of the day, andros has the only appropriate attitude. Fuck 'em. They’re not you, they don’t understand and they don’t walk in your shoes.
pan
From a note I sent to bodypoet yesterday:
“Almost every time I see anyone defending being a housewife, they ALWAYS preface it with, ‘I have my Master’s in nuclear physics/I have built five houses for the homeless with my bare hands/I left a high-paying job for this.’ It’s almost as though they’re saying, ‘I’m a housewife/SAHM, but it’s okay because I did all this OTHER stuff first, so I’m still a worthwhile human being DESPITE being a SAHM.’”
I do feel as though anyone who questions my worthiness as a human being should go fuck themselves, anally, with a traffic cone, sans lube.
However…this does bite my ass. I understand that this is wholly NOT what she was trying to imply, but it stilll seems as though it’s a standard implication.
I know that I shouldn’t feel less worthwhile because I didn’t finish college and haven’t had an actual paying job in years, but I do anyhow. Especially because, even if it’s not intentional, the whole “I do THIS and I’m STILL a good parent” “I do THAT and I am still a good parent TOO” back-and-forth makes me feel like I’m an asshole for thinking I’m doing much of anything useful when all I do is stay at home.
Not doing anything useful? Good god Hama - without you, who else would keep the flirters in line around here? 
Anyway - I’m glad you said your piece. If any of you want to defend a lifestyle choice, you should do so without qualification. If something is acceptable, then it is so without the necessity of adding a caveat.
The rant is a nice thought, but it isn’t thought through. So what if you were an uneducated Oprah-watching sweet-stuffing blob? It’s your life, after all. Don’t ever feel the need to justify yourself.
pan
Hama has some good points, and I want to address them, if I can, without pissing anyone else off.
When I give the standard blather about what I do, what I am, etc, I am, of course, referring only to MYSELF. Unfortunately, I think that can come off as implying that if you don’t have an education, etc etc blah blah blah, then you haven’t EARNED the right to be a SAHM.
I have my own hangups to deal with regarding my place in the world and my value, and those are ones I am NOT going to touch in this thread because they are too painful and too hard. So that defensiveness came through, and I truly apologize to Hama here, as I did in private email. I think she does understand what I meant, even if I worded it badly.
No one has to justify this choice, and I don’t want to imply that anyone does. It’s valid, it’s important, and it deserves some RESPECT. I still do not understand why we SAHMs are somehow supposed to be immune to being insulted. It is all well and good to say “Fuck 'em” to the world, but it is much nicer to be appreciated, and what’s more–since when did we start letting people get away with putting people down for their lifestyle choices?
Anyway, Hama, you know I wish you the best, and hopefully we will stay in contact.
~k
I’m a housewife and mother as well. I wouldn’t change that for the world, but yes, I get bored and frustrated. There are times when I’m not 100% happy. I don’t think that feeling that way means you’re unhappy with your choices. My hubby loves what he does for a living, but sometimes it all just gets on his nerves. Any job–and, oh boy, is being a houswife and mother some job–is bound to have its moments that make a person feel as though they’re in a rut.
I do have a college degree–but you know what? One of the reasons I went to college was because I wanted kids so badly and for various reasons, I was unable to have them at the time. So I went to college so that I would have something to occupy my time. I enjoyed college–but at times got bored and frustrated with it.
My point here is that it’s not being a housewife and mother that leads to boredom–life just gets that way sometimes. You aren’t some kind of freak if you aren’t always perky and happy in your job!!
I’m sorry if that sounded hostile… that certainly wasn’t my intention! 
I understand where you are coming from and I agree that no one should be put down for their choices. Being a parent is the hardest and most important job any of us will ever have and every parent deserves respect regardless of whether they work outside the home or stay at home. No one has to justify why they work outside the home or why they stay at home because it’s no one else’s business.
Well, I considered starting out that initial post with something like “Hey all you idiots who think SAHMs are fat, lonely, desperate, uneducated, Oprah-watching, Cosmo-reading, bon bon-eating slobs–FUCK YOU.” But I don’t know…it seemed kind of knee-jerk, you know?
This rant is a “nice thought”? I have been thinking about this very subject for quite some time, and although Hama made a very good and valid point, I like to think that the whole issue goes a little deeper than being a “nice thought.” Somehow, three or four years of hearing the types of comments I referred to gave me the idea that I had really had a chance to think things through just a tad.
“A nice thought…”. Hmmm. I have been up since 4 a.m. and had a lot of coffee, so maybe it’s just me, but this sure sounds condescending. Hope I’m wrong, Pan, really, because I want to like you.
At least you didn’t tell me to not worry my pretty little head about it. 
I had a glass of tea, played with the baby some, and decided I’m being oversensitive and that kabbes was not being condescending. Also that s/he won’t give a rat’s ass whether or not I care about him.
[note to self:] *No more pit rants. NONE. *[/note to self]
Please believe me - no condescension intended.
I just wanted to make the point that in the history of those who have the best of intentions to stand up for the downtrodden there is an oft-repeated error. Namely the intentional or unintentional marginalization-to-extinction of the subset of the opressed group that doesn’t fit with the most media-friendly image. But to only stand up for those who fit with your own self-image can end up causing the rest of society to look down even further on those who don’t fit this image - in this case, it can appear to the disinterested reader that they aren’t even “good enough” to be SAHM.
I know this isn’t your intention, which is why I want to warn you of the possible consequences. You’re a nice person and you’re obviously damn smart. And you’ll be in illustrious company - just ask the otherwise fabulous feminist leaders of the seventies that lead do this looking-down-upon of SAHM in the first place. All they wanted was to open up the workplace and society for women. But by ignoring those who wanted to remain a SAHM, they created an underclass.
pan
These are good points, Pan, and thank you.
Funny, because I was just thinking about this whole thing this morning, and mulling over some ideas about it all. These are just random thoughts, not necessarily in response to any one comment from any particular person, but I’m interested in feedback.
I respond from my own point of view and in reference to my own life…thus I do respond (to derogatory comments about housewives, et al) with a degree of “Wait a damn minute, I have done XYZ, and who are YOU to imply that…”. You know what I mean. Why I respond in that way is the real question, and one I pondered as I delivered breaking news directly to people’s doorsteps at 5 a.m. (You gotta have something to occupy your mind besides thoughts of “Did I knock over her houseplants again?”)
So here are my thoughts, in much the same disorganized fashion that they occurred to me. FWIW.
~Yep, I shouldn’t defend SAHMs or housewives on the basis of my own defensiveness or my own situation. In other words, we don’t have to “earn” the right to make these choices by first getting degrees, being in the work force, etc.
~OTOH, I have done what I have done, I do what I do, and I don’t want to minimize that either. It’s kind of a double-edged sword…how to show a sense of myself as anything other than a SAHM, if doing so puts down other SAHMs? I’m a SAHM, fine. But I’m also a poet, I’m also a former teacher, etc…those things are important to me, too…not in the sense that they make me feel I have “earned” the right to be a SAHM, but because they are so much a part of my identity. It’s a tough one to explain, and I’m not sure I’m doing a good job of it.
~We define ourselves so much by what we “do”, and generally, that refers to our jobs or professions. Is that a good thing? Probably not, to the degree that it occurs. But in order to get a feel for how difficult it is to not catch yourself justifying being a SAHM, try this (it only works if you’re a parent): Next time someone asks you, “What do you do?”, say “I’m a parent. I have (however many) great kids to raise,” and leave it at that–without adding anything about your profession. It won’t be exactly the same, of course, because even in your own mind, you will be thinking “…and I also design websites” or whatever–but it might give you a feel for what it is like to define yourself by standards that put a lot of emphasis on work and professions.
~I’m still dealing with my own issues of self-worth and where I fit into the world and how to define myself safely (more on that in another thread, perhaps, if I can manage it). I struggle constantly with feeling that I have to earn my place and my happiness. My hang-up, no one else’s, but I have to remember that the way I feel is not necessarily the way it is. (Was that my therapist talking? Sure sounded like her for a minute there!)
~And besides all that, I may be a good parent, but I’m lousy at most of the other aspects of SAHMing…I’m a terrible housekeeper, hate doing birthday parties, and am not much of a cook at the moment. Ah well. Goals.
~k
This, in particular, is a fantastic point.
But hey - nobody ever said that changing the world was going to be easy
So thankyou for your last post. And I would like to say - never deny yourself either. Mother, poet, soldier of fortune. The whole is a lot more than the sum of the parts.
pan
It is almost invariable that when you meet people one of the questions they will ask you is, “So, what do you do for a living?”
I know why people ask this question and I have asked it myself. I guess it’s a good starting point when you begin a dialogue with another person. It gives you things to talk about but what people do for a living isn’t everything.
I have noticed the difference in people’s reaction between the time when I worked as a waiter and now, when I have what is apparently a more respected position. Thing is, I’m still the same asshole I ever was. When I get to be a SAHD I’ll still be me and there’s more to me than what I do for a living. Of course, you’d have to get to know me to find that out.
What bugs me is that we can base too much too much our opinion of other people because on what they do. There is a group of people out there who don’t feel that being a SAHP is as important as say, being a mailman.
Being a SAHP is a tough job. Lola had problems being one and since she went back to school things here at home have suffered a little… okay… a whole bunch.
She was getting so good at it too. Taking care of the kids, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, feeding the critters, making my life a whole lot easier…
Now she’s off at school and not sure if she’s going into quantum physics or astrophysics. I think she’s taking the easy way out because being a SAHM is a more demanding job than either of those careers.
If anyone tells me that they are a SAHP they have my highest respect. Raising our children well is the most important thing we can ever hope to do. Anyone who would deride someone for making this choice should try it for a while.
Sounds like you’re a good mother.
One of the 1001 reasons I did not have children was because I was unwilling to do what I feel is necessary to raise children the best way possible: stay at home and devote myself to the job. For me, such a job would be torture. Not the staying at home part, it’s the staying at home and being on duty 24/7 part. It’s the job you never get a break from, whether you’re staying at home or working outside it.
I get this truth reinforced daily in talks with my best friend, who is a SAHM with two exceptionally great children, 5 and 9. And I can’t imagine what it would take for me to take on her life.
Anyway, you certainly won’t ever see me dissing homemakers. Doesnt’ say squat about who you are in terms of your intelligence and interests, just that you’re a devoted parent who has the means to be able to do that.
I thank heaven there are people like you. The species would die out in a single generation if everyone was like me.
stoid
I admit to asking this same question myself, or at least the “So what do you do?” type query.
Recently, however, I answered this question with “I’m a stay at home mom”, and the answer I got back really got my attention. I was talking to a very sweet, friendly young man, maybe in his mid-twenties. But his response was: “Oh, I seriously understand what it’s like to be unemployed.” :eek:
Well. I didn’t rip his head off or anything, because I know he was just trying to be nice, but it did give rise to a nice little poem called “Etiquette Lessons for Brandon.”
My own father is completely unimpressed with me. He feels that I am wasting my education, forcing my husband to support me–in short, he can’t still call me “my daughter who teaches”. At best, he has to say something like “She makes soap for a living.” He hates it…this, in spite of the fact that my own mom was either a SAHM or worked out of our home for my whole life. Go figure.
I bet you’ll be an awesome SAHD. Best wishes!
~k
You know, I never thought I would be able to stay home with my kids, and I wasn’t able to (financially or emotionally) with the first two (who are now 11 and 15). I stayed home summers and sometimes thought that was too long!
Maybe because I’m older and more patient, it seems better–even though the two current babies are a lot different (read: wild as hell) in temperment than my older ones were. I sure am not perfect…the whole housekeeping thing is beyond me, and I have a LOT of room to improve. But I love my kids, I’m honest with them, and I try to teach them some responsibility and values along the way. Could be worse, I suppose, but I’m continually working on it.
Thanks for your kind comments, stoid. Most folks here are very supportive, and in fact, most people in general are–even the ones who seem to have negative stereotypes in place, once they really look at the situation realistically. It’s good to hear, though, when you are a SAHM…sometimes there is just not a lot of support in the immediate environment.
~k
I was a some-of-the-time SAHD. As a freelancer, I was with them all day, whole days at a time, until I got a gig- then they went to day care. It worked for us, still works. The wife has the full-time job, benefits, etc.
I loved being with them but you know what? I did get bored, I have no trouble admitting this. It’s tedious and being with small people is supposed to be tedious. It’s also uplifting, enjoyeable, nourishing to my heart and soul, and a SHITLOAD of fun. I’d drag that freaking stroller made for two up the elevated N Train steps, and take them into NYC and never think twice. Me and my kids. EVERYWHERE. I loved that time I had with them.
I have to chime in with those of you who basically have the, " my mind, my kids, my spouse and my family are fine with this arrangement so fuck off" mindset. All KINDS of family arrangements yield all kinds of children. It’s a mishmash and one can skew stats any way they want to, so stats don’t mean bupkus to me.
What matters is what a child is like. Are they loved? Can they handle socializing? If not, why? They are an endless source of fascination to me. Babies love me, they’ve always fallen asleep in my arms at the right moment. ( A skill that’s annoyed a few moms and dads but hey, tough.)
I absolutely respect your choices, bodypoet. I think you rock.
Cartooniverse
When I met my dh, I was a single mom with a 4 yo and an almost-1 yo. We took the kids to see Hook. Smallpoet, upon first laying eyes on dh (who was still basically a nice stranger at that point), immediately fell in love with him. We went to the movie, he climbed right up on dh’s lap and conked out. I reached over to take him (smallpoet), he immediately woke up and squirmed right back onto dh’s lap.
We repeated this…oh, about four or twelve times during the movie. By the time we got out, dh’s clothes were soaked by diaper-leak and no doubt his arms were numb from holding that little one-year old.
I went home, called my mom, and said, “Well, there’s another one running screaming for the state line right this moment, probably.”
Heaven only knows why he called again, but if babies love you and fall asleep on you, I take it as a very good sign of your good-guy status.
~k
I’m a SAHM and a friend and fellow writer said to me “Must be nice to have a sugar daddy so you can stay home and write all day.”
I don’t know which irritated me more - that he referred to my husband as a sugar daddy, or that he thought I just sat around all day pounding on the keyboard.
Actually, this post is the first thing I’ve written all day. The grocery list doesn’t count.
Sheri