Is a well regulated milita necessary to the security of a free state?

Yes, but did they view the threat as coming from abroad, or from the govt. itself? You could argue the point either way with King George–on the one hand, he’s the leader of your govt., quartering troops in your homes and seeing that you pay your taxes; on the other hand, he’s a foreign power whom you’re trying to repel.

I guess the question is, did the FFs want the militia, in addition to fighting foreign invaders, to stand ready in case the USA’s newly formed govt. turned to crap and the first or second president we had declared himself king? I mean, they built checks and balances into every institution–why not this final check against the ultimate abuse of power?

Perhaps a little history would be helpful. As I tried to point out in the pit thread that engendered this discussion, the existence of a militia has a long and not always proud tradition in America and Britain. American colonial militia served along side British regulars in the French and Indian Wars and a fair part of the colonial militia was drafted into British regular units to bring them up to strength. This practice was the subject of much controversy at the time because it subjected militiamen to regular army discipline, service under un-elected officers and was claimed by the British authority to void the drafted militiamen’s short term service contract. Colonial militia played a significant role in the reduction of French Canada, to include the siege of Quebec.

Following the French and Indian wars colonial militia continued to play a role in the defense of the frontier and the maintenance of public order. Until the outbreak of unrest in New England (the Boston Tea Party, the Boston Massacre) and the Intolerable Acts, the colonial militia was about the only armed force south of the St. Lawrence River. Select companies of the militia were designated as a rapid reaction force (if you would), designated as prepared to report fullyarmed, provisioned and equipped on 30 minutes notice. These were the Minute Men. The colonial militia was armed and equipped at the expense of the government. Part of the taxation without representation fight was over the colonies reimbursing the Motherland for the expense of arming and paying the militia.

When the crises came in the spring of 1774 at Lexington, Concord, Boston and Charlestown, it was the colonial militia, armed with British muskets, shooting British bullets with British gunpowder that faced the British garrison. These were not rag-tag farmers and tradesmen armed with their private fowling pieces, they were organized militia units and were, in my judgment, the people bearing arms within the meaning of the Second Amendment.

The great bulk of the armed forces serving under Washington, Gates and the other American commanders were militiamen serving for short terms, typically for 30 or 90 days. You will remember Washington’s frustration over his inability to hold an army together because his militia units were constantly going home. There were relatively few American regular formations, called “Continentals”, who were enlisted for a long term.

The leading politicians of the Colonial, Confederation and early Federalist periods had much faith in militias and considerable fear of standing armies. They had before them the example of the English Civil War, the Highland Rebellions and the role of the British army in the Revolution. The Constitution gave the Federal Government the power to have a standing army. There was considerable concern that a standing army would become an instrument of Federal tyranny (see Shay’s Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion). The guarantee of the existence of State controlled militias independent of federal control was seen as the counterbalance to the military power of the national government. To the greatest extent the regular army was kept small and there was reliance on the State militias to meet the country’s military needs. Thus the War of 1812 was fought largely with militia forces, as were the Indian troubles up through the Civil War. Abraham Lincoln’s service during the Black Hawk War was as a short term militiaman.

The experience of using militia as a national armed force was a speckled one. Militia tended to be poorly trained and disciplined and its officers tended to be marginally competent. For every Battle of the Thames or Tippecanoe there was a St. Clair’s Defeat or a Siege of Detroit or a burning of Washington City. Nonetheless, the usefulness and value of the militia system was an article of faith up through the Civil War. Scott’s Campaign in Mexico involved militia units. The Mississippi Rifles, J. Davis, commanding, was a militia unit.

In the Civil War the State designated units on both sides were technically militia units mustered into national service and many of those units were initially clothed, equipped and armed at state expense. Kansas militia served with regular units in Hancock’s Campaign against the Indians in the years right after the Civil War. Militia units served in Cuba and the Pacific during the Spanish-American War and the Philippine Insurrection, although under the “mustered into Federal service” scheme.

It was not until the period just before WWI that the old militia system was transformed into the National Guard system we still have. While NG units are subject to the orders of their particular State government, the procedure for calling the NG to national service is pretty summary, as was demonstrated when President Eisenhower nationalized the Arkansas NG. When the Gov. mobilized the NG to keep Black students out of Central High School in Little Rock, Eisenhower called the NG to national service to protect the Black students, directly contrary to the State’s orders.

Clearly the militia system that the Founders knew and understood as the people armed has been transformed into something much different and has not existed for least 100 years.

That being said, it is clear to me that the private militias floating around have nothing to do with the militia as contemplated by the founders and by the Second Amendment. Those militias were subject to control by public officers who were presumably answerable to the electorate. Clearly the private militias are not answerable to anyone. Indeed, the private militias seem more akin to some sort of Marching and Pier-loo Society, or the Elks or Moose Clubs (not to defame the Elks and Moose) than to any real military organization. They more closely resemble the Conditori battalions of Renaissance Italy and freebooter bands of patriots/bandits than anything else.

However, like the historical militia, the modern private militias seem to be a pretty weak reed. They are clearly deficient in organization, training and logistics and have no command structure worthy of the name. The dominant impression is that they are over grown children playing at soldiers, with a strain of paranoia thrown in for good measure.

Except that, as Riboflavin pointed out, would-be tyrannical governments first disarm the population before building the Warsaw Ghetto. Given that Waco was about the federal government disarming part of the populace which was in disagreement with it, shouldn’t that have been the time to stop the government–before it disarms those it would ghetto-ize?

If you’re not willing to defend the right to bear arms with violent revolution, then those arms won’t be around when they’re needed.

I would contend that the Branch Davidians did, indeed, defend their right to bear arms. And lost doing so.

I guess the question is, at what point should militias/private citizens bearing arms point those arms at the Feds? When their neighbors are being besieged, or only when they themselves are under attack?

“In Germany, they first came for the communists and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a communist…”

The question answers itself. If you believe that the purpose of private gun ownership is to defend the people against a tyrannical government, then logically, one takes up arms against that government when they’re doing it to any portion of the people; otherwise, the government just picks you off, one small militia at a time.

Well that’s the problem. Citizen militias are worthless if only specific groups being attacked by the Feds bear arms in defense (like the Davidians).

And since our nation’s gun owners do not take up arms against the government when they’re doing it to any portion of the people, it logically follows that the purpose of private gun ownership is something other than defense against a tyrannical government.

Then I guess we can conclude that those “militias” who criticized the ATF after the fact are cowardly dogs. I have no problem with that conclusion.

Of course, since I, personally, think the BDs were a bunch of nutcakes and a seeming threat to the public and to the minors in their compound, the ATF was IMO justified in their crackdown (though, of course, the investigation into the EXTENT of the crackdown, i.e., possibly burning the BDs alive, was also justified).

Just b/c the feds attack some gun owners doesn’t automatically make the gun owners right and the feds wrong. Or vice-versa.

Oh good, someone else brought the National Guard into this already.

National Guard units are often called up during emergency situations – such as hurricanes or, in the case of my old unit, a prison riot – but they certainly don’t resemble the old militia. Far from being independent, self-sufficient, state-based military organizations, National Guard units are often very specialized units and have a specific mission to fulfill if/when activated. In fact, I believe our military is now organized so that a good many of the combat support services are concentrated in the NG (and Reserves), so that the NG is integral to the overall structure of any operation. Many of the units in my state were signal corps, designated to set up radio communications and so on; we were not trained to fight armed battles or defend the state from invasion.

So I agree with Spavined Gelding: I think what the Founder Fathers meant by the word “militia” as such has long since vanished and morphed into something entirely different. This makes it doubtful whether the word can now be applied to “private” organizations who are answerable to no one but themselves.

Spavined, in the way society is organized today it would be almost impossible to have anything like minutemen who were ready at a moment’s notice and trained in public square!

Gun clubs would be about the closest thing to a private militia we would ever have. Whether this is actually utilized to train people to be soldiers is beyond my knowledge, but I highly doubt it.
[/talking to spavined specifically]

Tyrannical government? Not in my America! Why, we’ve had no sort of tyranny for over 50 years! Maybe even more!

The biggest problem with private militias is that political alignment of people who want private gun ownership probably isn’t really that similar. Even if 10% of the population owned guns (and I don’t really care if it is less or more), trying to get even half of them to recognize a problem that they could combat in their area, and get them to agree that armed resistence is the way to combat it, just isn’t terribly likely I don’t think. It would take some serious-ass tyranny.

But, well, isn’t that what the guns are for in the first place? When the inherent processes available in the government break down? After all, our government isn’t made in a manner that exactly promotes tyranny.

But, of course, why consider that when we can just assume that gun owners must be lying about everything when they don’t travel en masse to protect a fringe group of wierdos like the Davidians? And why assume that a critical look at the ATF’s practices might be a critical look at the ATF’s practices when we can just say they were cowards?

Sounds good to me.

The NRA has 2,000,000 members. Not one showed up ready for armed resistance at Waco, or at Randy Weaver’s farm. That’s a unanimous vote against armed intervention by those who say they have their arms just so they can intervene against a tyrannical government.

That number doesn’t include those gun owners (a not insignificant minority) who think that the NRA is too soft. Not one of those guys went, either. Not one.

Calling them cowards is a little much. Were I a gun owner who considered that ownership a right with a concommitant duty to exercise that right in defense of liberty, I would still hesitate to jump in my car and head out to Waco. I would definitely have to consider the possible consequences of winning, then discovering that Koresh really had been getting weird with the pre-teen girls in the compound.

The History of the Militia in America

[small nit]That might be had, in 1996. It’s now well over 4 million[/small nit]

Really? Well, 4,000,000, then, not one of whom was compelled to defend at gunpoint the liberty for which (s)he has a gun in the first place.

Writing for myself, I didn’t feel “compelled” to do anything because I felt that the government was doing the right thing. After the fallout of Waco and Ruby Ridge, I felt compelled to become politically involved to make sure that never happens again.

Perhaps the better question, then, is “as someone who believes that private gun ownership is a right predicated on retaining the ability of the people to defend themselves against tyrannical government, under what circumstances would you feel compelled to defend someone or some group from the federal government?”

Armed defense, I mean.

Honest answer. I don’t know. As it stands now, I choose to use the political process to exercise change that I feel needs to happen to prevent overzealous use of government agencies. (on that note, good night. I have an arduous bicycle commute tomorrow.)

I’m not sure I see a difference between your private militia and a paramilitary group.

In Columbia, pro-government paramilitaries in recent years have secured freedom (in some areas) from the FARC revolutionaries. And one could argue that the general populace in both government and FARC controlled areas has not been as oppressed as less gun-ridden societies have been during some civil wars.

In Macedonia, the Albanian minority has secured freedom from overt discrimination and attained legal equality through the actions of what could be considered a private militia.

Same is true to a lesser degree in Northern Ireland, although in that case you could argue that rights would have been advanced more quickly without the violence, and guns were really a small part anyway.

In Kosovo, private militias have protected the rights of Serbs and ethnic Albanians, although at the time when the government was doing the oppressing, these were pretty ineffective. And of course these same militias have run roughshod over the rights of the other ethnic group when they got the chance.

Private militias have been pretty ineffective in Palestine, and disappeared pretty quickly in East Timor when going got rough.

Oh you must be kidding.

FARC resembles “freedom” in roughly the same way that Stalin represented democracy. Freedom to get your brains blown out if you disagree with them, for the most part.

I would love to see an unbiased cite on the Albanian situation in Macedonia, not to mention a cite that demonstrates it was laws that recognized private firearms ownership that accomplished whatever you’re alleging the KLA types accomplished.

No noticeable private firearms ownership in Ireland. Whatever was “accomplished” occurred without the right that American gun lovers say is the very bulwark of freedom and human rights. Not to mention, as you more or less acknowledge, that high explosives and guys named whatever guys named Guido are named in Ireland had a hell of a lot more to do with whatever it is the IRA accomplished than guns did. And even then, it’s more than fair to say that the political process had a far larger role in Good Friday than armed resistance ever did.

Re: Kosovo: see comments above on Macedonia. See also massive payloads of guided missiles and smart bombs dropped by the United States, without which nearly every Kosovar Albanian would undoubtedly now be living in other countries or dead.

Um, first of all there is actually quite a bit of private firearms ownership in Northern Ireland. The most recent cite I can find is this one from 1998, but as there have been no moves to decommission legally-held weapons since then, I’d expect the number to be higher now. 138,727 might not sound like a lot of guns but keep in mind we’re talking a population of only 1.6 million. Note the contrasts in that article between the much higher populations of the Republic and of Scotland, and the much lower gun ownership in those countries.

Of course, the fact that most of those weapons are in the hands of unionists throws a bit of a monkey wrench into the argument. The fact is that without access to legal weapons the IRA still managed to set up “no-go” areas in which they essentially were the local security force - and to some degree still are (if you live in Ballymurphy and your house gets broken into, who do you think you’re you going to go to?).

Armed resistance is what created the willingness for unionists and the British government to seek a political process. The initial attempts to use the “political process” to resolve the institutionalised sectarianism of the NI statelet led to absolutely nothing from the nationalist point of view, apart from increasing anti-Catholic violence. The political process only became effective when the British government and (some) Unionists decided it was less hassle than trying to keep Catholics from fighting back.

That said, I don’t foresee a remotely comparable situation occurring in the States, or in most other Western countries.