Is Alcoholics Anonymous a cult?

Great Debates
63

[QUOTE=RedFury]
A.A. and Religious Faith

– bolding mine.

Note the “subtle” change from Higher Power to God. Bait and switch much, Mr Wilson? Besides, what kind of “results” are you going to get from believing in something you can’t “fully define or comprehend”?

From the Orange Papers which, apparently, AA advocates refuse to read…much less refute.
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I looked at it. There’s no reason to continue this discussion with you. You’ve already made perfectly clear two things, you rupudiate AA and you’re completely ignorant of the reality of AA. Hopefully you’ll never be in need of it. But, if you are we have a chair for you.

64

[QUOTE=amarinth]
I can see the problems for an atheist or agnostic in the first phrase, but making amends seems to be religion neutral. Where’s the issue in that phrase?
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Umm, why would that even been necessary? If you want to stop drinking, pay off your old credit card debts? If you want to stop drinking, call up your ex girlfriend and tell her you’re sorry you slept around when you were younger?

Those things are able to bring back guillty feelings, which only the group can then help resolve. The more guilt you have, the more you need the group.

65

[QUOTE=dalej42]
Umm, why would that even been necessary? If you want to stop drinking, pay off your old credit card debts? If you want to stop drinking, call up your ex girlfriend and tell her you’re sorry you slept around when you were younger?

Those things are able to bring back guillty feelings, which only the group can then help resolve. The more guilt you have, the more you need the group.
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What the heck are you talking about??? Do you have any understanding of why people make amends?

66

[QUOTE=RedFury]
I see you calling my cite a “crock of shit” yet not a single refutation provided. Besides, it’s impossible to “read” a site with literally hundreds of links in the time-frame that I first posted it.

Lastly, as I said in my very first post, if it works for you, great. But don’t try to say it’s some sort of scientific cure for alcoholism. It isn’t. And I am not without knowledge in this area, quite the contrary actually, as I’ve had/have to deal with some close relatives suffering from the disease.

They are under specialized psychiatric care with different degrees of success.

Fact: there is no silver bullet for the treatment of alcoholism, but it’s also clear that we know much more about the disease (and the mind in general) than when Wilson wrote the steaming pile that is The Big Book.
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Look - Citing the Orange Papers as a source against AA is like citing Mein Kampf for holocaust survivors saying the holocaust didn’t happen.

Why would someone who wanted to stop drinking look at the Orange Papers? Seriously, why would they want to read that? Will it help them stop drinking? Will it help the urges go away? How about their emotional state will it help with that?

NO, it won’t.

You have relatives suffering from the disease, and they are under psychiatric specialized care as well - I am sorry for your relatives and their issues with alcoholism - do you think they would want you refuting an organization that has helped millions of people not drink one day at a time? Who gives a shit if it helps 100 people or 10,000? AA helps some people, other people it doesn’t. If you can find a way without it then that’s awesome! Good on you - keep doing what you are doing.

And I never, ever said AA is a scientific cure for alcoholism - I wouldn’t say that, because that would be a load of shit. But one thing AA does do for many people, is allow them an outlet to talk to people who are going through the same thing they are. Who better to help an alcoholic stay sober than another sober alcoholic? They feel your pain, they have been through it, and they have an inclination of what works. They are not professionals. However, I do know many professionals who are in AA.

I feel like I am barking up the wrong tree here. Some do not want to understand that AA helps some people.

67

Call it a “cult.” Call it a “support group.” Fuck all, call it an “ice cream sundae.”

It makes no difference what you call “it” if “it” helps you from reaching your potential, doing harm to yourself, and having a negative effect on the people around you.

Several members here have given testimonial as to how it helped them. I know for a fact that it helped my ex-wife. Your results may vary - and that’s OK, too.

68

Fair enough, Phlosphr. I freely admit, based on everything I’ve read and seen, that I personally see AA as a cult – and citing the Orange Papers is simply providing the evidence for backing my claim.

OTOH, I am not denying that some people have benefited from it – specially when there weren’t many/any alternative forms of treatment – and some may still do.

So for those that it helps…bully for them.

Meanwhile, here’s yet more evidence to be ignored: Alcoholics Anonymous America’s State Religion?

Not much more I can add, thus I’ll take my leave.

69

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Fair enough, Phlosphr. I freely admit, based on everything I’ve read and seen, that I personally see AA as a cult – and citing the Orange Papers is simply providing the evidence for backing my claim.

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No problem, I was harsh in my criticism. Luckily we live in a relatively free society and people can try one thing or another or another until they find something that works. From what you say you have seen you see AA as a cult. From what I have seen from with-in I see it as a new freedom and a new peace for people who are suffering from alcoholism.

I certainly hope that everyone who is sick and/or suffering from alcoholism can find the help they need.

70

Before I start, I’ll state that I do not think that AA is a cult, but I don’t think the defense of AA that’s been laid out here has been very logical or compelling.

[QUOTE=plnnr]
Several members here have given testimonial as to how it helped them. I know for a fact that it helped my ex-wife. Your results may vary - and that’s OK, too.
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Testimonials are not evidence. You can provide testimonials for nearly any kind of bizarre philosophy or quackery. Personal anecdotes do not make something valuable.

Whether or not AA is a cult is a separate matter from whether it is effective or not, but, in any case, one can criticize a thing without having a moral responsibility to solve the problem. I am not a psychiatrist and have no particular knowledge about treating mental illness, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t call bullshit on Scientology for blaming depression on alien souls inhabiting my body.

I am sure that AA has helped some people, but the emotionality displayed here isn’t helping anyone. We’re here to fight ignorance, not encourage it, and while Red Fury’s cites may be biased, that doesn’t mean that they should be summarily ignored without any substantial comment (e.g. Burton’s response).

71

[QUOTE=fluiddruid]
Before I start, I’ll state that I do not think that AA is a cult, but I don’t think the defense of AA that’s been laid out here has been very logical or compelling.
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What, no love for my peer-reviewed, evidence-based studies on the subject? :frowning:

72

[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
What, no love for my peer-reviewed, evidence-based studies on the subject? :frowning:
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Well, let’s see what the “peers” thought about Project MATCh :

Cutler and Fishbain go on to say:

Dr. Stanton Peele goes on to criticize Project MATCH for neglecting to use a control group, using highly trained professionals during counseling (who would not be available to the general public), and negligence in matching expected goals to specific programs to validate the term “success.”

According to Wikipedia, psychologist G. Alan Marlatt, a pioneer in the development of behavioral treatments for alcoholism, said that the study was poorly designed and poorly worded. Marlatt states: “Everybody can now pro-ject their own views about alcoholism on this study.”

73

As for the Orange Paper’s, it hard to know where to start, for instance the chapter Recruiting Mind Games, AA does not recruit, AA is a program of attraction not promotion. No one is out beating the streets looking for recruits. There is nothing in any AA literature that says you have to get down on your knees and accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. The claim made by A. Orange that AA members are forced into a religious conversion is simply not true. Orange is not objective about AA at all.

Is there an aspect of spirituality to AA? Yes there is, but it’s personal to each member. Many meeting close with the Lord prayer, I despite having given up on Christianity; recite it along with everyone else. It’s the act of doing so more than the words that’s important in my opinion. I don’t feel in any way compromised by doing so. However, should an individual not wish to, no one’s going to insist they do so.

This is the official description:

Alcoholics Anonymous® is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

The book Alcoholics Anonymous was written in 1939 by a stockbroker. It’s not great literature however it’s a description of how two men both of whom were destined for an early death or worse, arrested their alcoholism. It is a little heavy on what appears to a Christian ethos and considering it was written by someone born in the 19th century that’s hardly surprising. What is perhaps surprising is that AA works as well as ever in the 21st century.

None of the proponents of AA in this thread have suggested it’s a scientific cure for Alcoholism and neither does AA. There is no cure. Abstaining from alcohol is the best anyone can do so far. Any way someone can abstain from alcohol is a good thing. AA is the only way I’ve found that has allowed me to do that. It was a last resort.

The benefit AA gets from increasing its membership is more suffering has been alleviated and there are more people available to help others stop their suffering.

AA is generally populated by people who would never join a cult as the term is being used in this thread. I know judges, the head of cardiac surgery, a gentleman who has a chair in his name at the Naval War College, FBI agents, a lot of former Marines, etc.

One of the more interesting things about alcoholism, like any other disease it’s random and strikes at all levels of society and race. That makes AA a vibrant and dynamic place.

I won’t be searching the net for information to support AA’s efficacy. I don’t need to.

74

To build a little on what Burton said: There is no set format for AA meetings. They are a reflection of the people attending. Some AA meetings can be very religious, others not at all. People naturally seek out similar-minded people to meet with. I knew a guy that went to a regular AA meeting that was attended exclusively by lawyers. I bet if I looked I could find a meeting of all atheists.

From what I’ve seen, from my small corner of Indiana over the last 11 years, is that judges have largely stopped ordering people to go to AA. There were a lot of complaints not only from people who felt it was cramming religion down their throat but also from serious AA members who didn’t like their meetings being taken over by people who were pissed about being there and who used the meeting as the place to meet up with their drinking buddies to hit the bars. It was also difficult for people in my line of work to verify that they had actually been to the meetings, since it is supposed to by anonymous.

Many of the treatment agencies that provide cognitive behavioral therapy, as referenced by QtM earlier, require patients to attend a certain number of AA meetings as a requisite for completing their programs. They do this to introduce people to the program so they have a place to go after they have completed the treatment if they feel they need to.

And to the person who said judges can’t order someone to go to church, I have a judge I’d like you to meet. I’ve seen him do it before, not often, but he does it.

75

My experience with AA and the legal system is from 30 years ago . At that time AA meetings were mandated by the court with a card to be signed by the person who ran the meeting. The effect for me was when I listened to the stories from the members was being stunned by how bad alcohol was for some people. Successful careers and relationships were destroyed. For some they just kept falling for a perhaps mythical bottom. I suspect some will just keep dropping.
The impact on the lives of drinking made you be aware of the dangers. I analyzed my drinking. I drank socially . Occasionally too much. But what I got out of AA was done in 2 meetings. I did not have to go over and over

76

[QUOTE=Consonants]
I think “cult” fits. But then I think all churches are cults, the distinction is only made by church goers.
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I don’t think AA can be called a cult or a religion, there is no definition of God, one can think of God as he would want God to be.

77

After reading the responses in this thread, I’m thinking that AA does share some characteristics of a cult. However, it isn’t doesn’t leave me thinking AA is as bad as Scientology.

The way I see it, you can compare AA to a cult the same way you can compare George W Bush to Adolph Hiter. Both got elected in suspect elections, both set up concentration camps and both started aggressive wars by lying. However, obviously Hitler is worse than Bush.

AA is a cult in that you are a member for life, you’re better off spending your time with other alcoholics rather than ‘normies’, AA’s literature is full of lies that if you repeat often enough, you’ll believe as truth.

However, AA hasn’t ruined as many lives as Scientology has.

78

So much for fighting ignorance.

79

“Cult” is a term whose definition can vary. Here are some typical elements of cults, and my reading as to how they don’t apply to AA:

Many cults seek to seperate you from your money. As stated, AA does not charge dues…contributions are voulentary and far from required. The literature is sold at prices that might cover printing and distribution costs, but I doubt it. It is not uncommon for a long term member to buy a newb a copy of “the blue book”. Nobody, but nobody is getting rich off AA, and nobody is handing over money they need for groceries or rent.

Many cults seek to seperate you from your family, friends, church, etc. AA encourages mending of the rifts that alcohol abuse tends to leave in it’s wake. AA will encourage members to engage more in any faith they already have. Only one’s (still) drinking buddies need be left behind.

Many cults shun anyone who dares leave the group. People still in the program probably won’t want to hang out with you if you are drinking again, but AA welcomes and encourages returnees.

Many cults expend significant effort recruiting new members. AA doesn’t. AT ALL. If you want to “join” AA you have to seek them out. AA groups of old, might have a phone number listed in the directory, and nowadays probably can be found via the internet…but basically, if you aren’t looking for meets, you likely won’t have any idea how common they are.

80

The idea that you have to go for a lifetime has a cult sense. I think for many the time required is not so long. But for a real alkie ,I doubt it works. It can be a brave attempt but I do not think meeting will do the deed. If you are not ready ,forced meetings will not work. I believe cleaning yourself up requires a intent to stop. Without that, it just attending meetings.

81

Most cults have a “we’re right and everyone else is wrong” mentality. AA says “We may be right for you and we may not. You might be able to do it some other way.”

82

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
The idea that you have to go for a lifetime has a cult sense. I think for many the time required is not so long. But for a real alkie ,I doubt it works. It can be a brave attempt but I do not think meeting will do the deed. If you are not ready ,forced meetings will not work. I believe cleaning yourself up requires a intent to stop. Without that, it just attending meetings.
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Apropos of what you write, I thought you might be interested in reading the following article:

“Do you have anything to say for yourself, Mr. X—?”