Is Alcoholism Really a Disease?

Great Debates
241

[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
Valteron - are you close to CT? I’d love ot have you speak at one of our meetings.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I am not sorry I am in Canada. :smiley: I think it is one of the best countries in the world to live in. And the UN survey regularly rates us as the best, second-best or (in bad years) fifth-best country to live in.

But I am sorry I am not near CT. I live in area of our national capital, Ottawa. My home is officially in the Province of Quebec, across the Ottawa River from Ottawa.

I also love America and have visted many parts of it, but never CT, sorry to say. But thanks for the nice compliment. I am going to Key West, Florida for nine days starting tomorrow. I will no doubt attend a couple of AA meetings while I am there.

I have an interesting story about Key West and AA that might help explain to Kalhoun and Evil Joe a little bit about how it works.

Nine months after I joined AA in 1990, I went on vacation in Key West. Now, I worked in a very high-stress job, which is one of the reasons I drank. But with the help of AA, I eventually found that I could calm myself down and handle stress by “letting go” and “living one day at a time” far better than I ever could by shuttting down my neurotic brain with alcohol.

But now I was surrounded by warm winds, palm trees, nothing to do and all day to do it. And I was finding it very difficult.

Now, I don’t know if you know Key West, but there are a number of what they call “nothing heads” there. They are basically bums whose brains have been so fried by alcohol, drugs and who knows what that they seem to have trouble functioning. One guy (who couldn’t have been more than 35) would stand on a corner on the main street taking a step in one direction, stopping, turning around, etc. as if he could not quite get his brain to work. I guess it is easier for these people to survive in a warm climate.

Anyhow, I went to an AA meeting and there was a grubby, kinda dirty young guy who I thought must be a “nothing head”. During the sharing, I said how much trouble I was having being on vacation, compared to the past 9 months of stressful but sober work. It puzzled me.

After the meeting, the “nothing head” comes up to me and to my surprise says “It’s simple. You have 9 months of experience in being sober in a stressful job. You have 2 days of being sober on vacation. In your first year of sobriety, you are going to have to learn to enjoy leisure sober, stress sober, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, etc. all sober. Your mind has to form new ways of thinking and learn how to enjoy a sober vacation.”

After I closed my mouth that was hanging open in surpise, I thanked him. And that is just what happened. Over 16 sober Christmases, some 30 sober vacations, I have learned how to enjoy myself tremendously. I believe I enjoy life way way MORE than I ever did when I drank. I do not celebrate the birth of Jesus, but I consider it a form of solstice festival. And do I ever have fun! My spouse and I have a tradition of going to a local Sandinavian Spa during the holidays and getting a one-hour Swedish massage and a full afternoon in the saunas and pools. It costs about $100 a person. Or to put it another way, it costs about what I used to pay for a week’s worth of booze!

Putting up with the fact that some of my AA buddies believe in God is a damn small price to pay for the benefits AA has given me.

242

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I don’t think it’s so much that doctors *won’t * prescribe to men as it is that men (in my experience, anyway) are much more reluctant to go to a doctor if they have *any * problem, much less a mental or emotional one. They can get booze without a prescription and they don’t have to admit that they need help. Self-medication and all…
[/QUOTE]

Most doctors don’t pick up on symptoms or even ask about alcohol abuse in women patients. They’re much more likely to be prescribed medication that masks some of the symptoms. There have been studies done on this. Doctors are quicker to pick up on symptoms with men. Similiar to the way heart disease used to go undiagnosed with women.

The fact that you mentioned, women are more likely to go to a doctor definitely plays a big part in this also.

243

I see a rock over there. You see a rock over there. You say it is a figment of my imagination. I say that it is real. We argue about it for weeks or years.

We know that truth is relative to time and place. We know that right and wrong change with time.

The rock is a fact.

Facts do not change.

The rock is not effected nor is it affected by what we say or think.

If the rock does not exist, it makes no difference. What you or I think about it does not affect nor effect the condition or existence of the rock.

My getting sober has nothing to do with others opinions. Has nothing to do with my opinions. It has to do with my actions.

AA is all about action. Many forget that, even some in AA.

YMMV

244

[QUOTE=Caridwen]
Most doctors don’t pick up on symptoms or even ask about alcohol abuse in women patients. They’re much more likely to be prescribed medication that masks some of the symptoms. There have been studies done on this. Doctors are quicker to pick up on symptoms with men. Similiar to the way heart disease used to go undiagnosed with women.

The fact that you mentioned, women are more likely to go to a doctor definitely plays a big part in this also.
[/QUOTE]

Possibly men are more honest when asked what they drink.

Possibly men go to doctors so infrequently that they have not learnt how to deal with doctors.

245

[QUOTE=Valteron]
Putting up with the fact that some of my AA buddies believe in God is a damn small price to pay for the benefits AA has given me.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that you “put up with” anything in your quest for sobriety. That’s not the point. Regardless of what the free-wheeling “do it yourself” members believe or don’t believe, *the organization *presents itself as a religious answer to addiction. Not only that, but they continue to prepetuate the silly notion that you can hand your addiction to an inanimate object – any object – and that will somehow aid you in getting sober. Now…I’m fine with people finding sobriety through assistance (the group, a doctor, a shrink; i.e. an “assistant”), but that’s a far cry from praying to a lampshade and believing that it has an ability to transform a drunk into a sober person. If they dropped all the window dressing and updated their approach so that it aligns with what we currently know about addiction, maybe their success rate would be better.

  1. Stop Drinking. If you find it easier to quit with other people who are in the same boat, you’ll find like-minded people here who you can hang out with while you get your bearings. If you are a severe alcoholic, a doctor should supervise detox in a controlled environment.

  2. Come to meetings to learn about the science behind addiction.

  3. Doorknobs cannot take away your addiction.

  4. **Fill the time you used to spend drinking with other activities. ** We will work with you to determine your interests and help you structure your time so that you are busy with other activities. Members of each group will make it their business to locate classes and groups where you can go to learn new skills or pursue old interests that were shelved while you were drinking.

  5. **You’re probably not an asshole. ** You may have behaved like one when you were drinking, but now that you’re sober you’re thinking with a clear mind again and will probably think twice before you punch your fist through a wall or dropping trou at the local ballpark.

  6. Your quest for sobriety doesn’t have to be anyone’s business but yours. No confession is necessary (your friends and family are well aware of your bad drunken behavior).

  7. See a doctor. You may have done some physical harm by drinking so much. If you’re having a hard time with cravings, a doctor may also be able to prescribe Antabuse. It works for lots of people. You won’t know until you inquire.

  8. Dwelling on the past can be counterproductive. Look to the future. You were a drunk but you’ve started a new chapter in your life. Embrace it!

  9. Exercise. It’s been proven to be helpful in maintaining sobriety. Maybe we can get a group discount at the gym and we can work together toward a goal of an all-around healthier lifestyle.

  10. Continue to abstain from drinking.

  11. Try to spend more time with friends and family who aren’t substance abusers. They probably missed you during the time you were drunk or hungover.

  12. Enjoy your new life.

246

This part right here I feel needs to be addressed.

That is your opinion. It is not what AA does.

You really need to go to some meetings or talk to a long time AA member and ask those questions and listen to the answers.

Actually, just getting the “Joe and Charlie Big Book Study” tape set and listen to that.

It can be had at most any AA Central Service office. Check you local phone directory.

They can also put you in contact with a local AA member who will be able to walk you through what is going on. Tell them up front that you are a critic and you want real answers, not just a opportunity to bash them. I am sure you will find it enlightening.

Not as much fun as SDMB but I for one have a hard time with explanations of these type things in this medium.

Do you really want to know? I just told you a good way. A 30 minute talk will give you more than 100 pages of this here.

YMMV

247

[QUOTE=GusNSpot]
This part right here I feel needs to be addressed.

That is your opinion. It is not what AA does.

You really need to go to some meetings or talk to a long time AA member and ask those questions and listen to the answers.

Actually, just getting the “Joe and Charlie Big Book Study” tape set and listen to that.

It can be had at most any AA Central Service office. Check you local phone directory.

They can also put you in contact with a local AA member who will be able to walk you through what is going on. Tell them up front that you are a critic and you want real answers, not just a opportunity to bash them. I am sure you will find it enlightening.

Not as much fun as SDMB but I for one have a hard time with explanations of these type things in this medium.

Do you really want to know? I just told you a good way. A 30 minute talk will give you more than 100 pages of this here.

YMMV
[/QUOTE]
Well, they either need to get a dictionary so they have an understanding of what the word “god” means to the rest of the world, or they need to remove it from their texts. It is marginalizing. If they truly believe it is unnecessary to acknowledge a higher power (and I’m talking about god; not doorknobs here) in order to recover, then why is the god reference there? They’d convince more people if they said what they mean and meant what they said.

I’m quite familiar with the organization, at least in it’s local carnations. YMMV.

By the way, what did you think of MY 12 Step Program?

248

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that you “put up with” anything in your quest for sobriety. That’s not the point. Regardless of what the free-wheeling “do it yourself” members believe or don’t believe, *the organization *presents itself as a religious answer to addiction. Not only that, but they continue to prepetuate the silly notion that you can hand your addiction to an inanimate object – any object – and that will somehow aid you in getting sober. Now…I’m fine with people finding sobriety through assistance (the group, a doctor, a shrink; i.e. an “assistant”), but that’s a far cry from praying to a lampshade and believing that it has an ability to transform a drunk into a sober person. If they dropped all the window dressing and updated their approach so that it aligns with what we currently know about addiction, maybe their success rate would be better.

  1. Stop Drinking. If you find it easier to quit with other people who are in the same boat, you’ll find like-minded people here who you can hang out with while you get your bearings. If you are a severe alcoholic, a doctor should supervise detox in a controlled environment.

  2. Come to meetings to learn about the science behind addiction.

  3. Doorknobs cannot take away your addiction.

  4. **Fill the time you used to spend drinking with other activities. ** We will work with you to determine your interests and help you structure your time so that you are busy with other activities. Members of each group will make it their business to locate classes and groups where you can go to learn new skills or pursue old interests that were shelved while you were drinking.

  5. **You’re probably not an asshole. ** You may have behaved like one when you were drinking, but now that you’re sober you’re thinking with a clear mind again and will probably think twice before you punch your fist through a wall or dropping trou at the local ballpark.

  6. Your quest for sobriety doesn’t have to be anyone’s business but yours. No confession is necessary (your friends and family are well aware of your bad drunken behavior).

  7. See a doctor. You may have done some physical harm by drinking so much. If you’re having a hard time with cravings, a doctor may also be able to prescribe Antabuse. It works for lots of people. You won’t know until you inquire.

  8. Dwelling on the past can be counterproductive. Look to the future. You were a drunk but you’ve started a new chapter in your life. Embrace it!

  9. Exercise. It’s been proven to be helpful in maintaining sobriety. Maybe we can get a group discount at the gym and we can work together toward a goal of an all-around healthier lifestyle.

  10. Continue to abstain from drinking.

  11. Try to spend more time with friends and family who aren’t substance abusers. They probably missed you during the time you were drunk or hungover.

  12. Enjoy your new life.
    [/QUOTE]

I’ll keep coming back to that!

249

[QUOTE=Evil Joe]
I’ll keep coming back to that!
[/QUOTE]

You don’t have to…not forever, anyway.

250

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Well, they either need to get a dictionary so they have an understanding of what the word “god” means to the rest of the world, or they need to remove it from their texts. It is marginalizing. If they truly believe it is unnecessary to acknowledge a higher power (and I’m talking about god; not doorknobs here) in order to recover, then why is the god reference there? They’d convince more people if they said what they mean and meant what they said.

I’m quite familiar with the organization, at least in it’s local carnations. YMMV.

By the way, what did you think of MY 12 Step Program?
[/QUOTE]

I think your 12-step program would be disaterous, especially for a drunk like me.

1. Stop Drinking. A must. A good place to start.

2. Come to meetings to learn about the science behind addiction. Pretty trivial. Knowing the science has nothing to do with quittng drinking. I read numerous books on alcoholism years before I got sober. So did many of the people I know in A.A.

3. Doorknobs cannot take away your addiction. True, but faith can be a powerful tool for believers. (BTW, I am an athiest. I don’t get it but have seen it work for others.)

4. Fill the time you used to spend drinking with other activities. A decent idea with the addition of ‘that are not centered around drinking’. Going to play pool at the local bar is probably a bad idea, at least at first, maybe forever.

5. You’re probably not an asshole. Acceptable but it doesn’t deal at all with many of the self destructive things most drunks have done. These are problems that need to be resolved.

6. Your quest for sobriety doesn’t have to be anyone’s business but yours. Dangerous for a drunk like me. Having someone who knows and understands my problem and can call me on my bullshit is a requirement.

7. See a doctor. Obvious.

*8. Dwelling on the past can be counterproductive. * While dwelling on the past is not good, ignoring the past is a serious problem. For a drunk like me, dealing with the past is a requirement for future sobreity. You don’t have to dwell on it but you do have to deal with it. For some people that can take years.

9. Exercise Obvious as well.

10. Continue to abstain from drinking. Obvious but it ignores the underlying problem which is how? How do you deal with the desire to drink? It is quite easy to tell a drunk to stop drinking. If it was as easy as just not drinking then there wouldn’t be a problem. It isn’t that easy for a drunk like me however.

*11. Try to spend more time with friends and family who aren’t substance abusers. * Possilby bad. Depends on the drunk and the family/friends. The underlying family/friends dynamics matter a whole lot. For most of the drunks I know, dealing with friends and family can be one of the biggest stressors around. I had to go through a huge amount of stuff to get my relationships with my friends/family healthy. It wasn’t easy and I had a large amount of help from other A.A’ers.

12. Enjoy your new life. Following your set of steps, I’d still be in hell. I know, I tried all those things and more. I asked my rommate, another recovering alkie his thoughts about your steps and he read them, laughed and walked away.

Also, you are way off on the whole god/religous aspect of A.A. It is trival for a reasonable number of recovering alkies. When I first talked to a man that I truely trust about getting a sponser the whole god thing came up. I said I was an athiest and he said ‘So? Ignore the god part, follow the rest and I know guy who would be a great sponser.’ My first sponser was quite religous. I found this out because he always went to church after the Sunday morning meeting. The only reason I knew he was religous was because he went to church every Sunday. I said I was an athiest and he said ‘Cool, now you gotta do the steps. Start working on 4’.

Kalhoun, just out of curiosity, do you think that the Declaration of Independance should be re-written because it mentions a creator? How about money, do we need to trash all the cash because it says ‘In God We Trust’? I am asking because it seems that you are overly concerned about the religous factor of A.A., which in my experience is limited to saying the Serenity Prayer at the end of meetings. God is mentioned in the steps. Some members are religous. Many are not. Many, like me, are athiests. The fact that the steps mention god is trivial in the big scheme of A.A. The underlying concepts behind the steps is important, I didn’t need to admit to a god that I don’t believe in that I was powerless over alcohol, I needed to admit it to myself. I didn’t believe that god would resolve my alcohol problem but that the program of A.A. could *if I worked it * because it worked for others.

Slee

251

2. Come to meetings to learn about the science behind addiction. Pretty trivial. Knowing the science has nothing to do with quittng drinking. I read numerous books on alcoholism years before I got sober. So did many of the people I know in A.A.

I think knowing the medical and psychological aspects of addiction can be helpful. I believe that it can be a factor in quitting, contrary to the dogma of AA that drinking is a metaphysical curse, resistant to everything except magic from above. Some people believe they drink because they are “bad” , immoral or weak willed. Knowing the medical facts about what is going on can at the very least dispel some self-hatred that some drinkers feel. Smokers quit smoking in about 10 seconds when the doctor tells them they have lung cancer. Is that because of divine providence or rational fear based on knowledge?

I have to agree with what GI Joe said about knowing and battle.

252

[QUOTE=Evil Joe]
2. Come to meetings to learn about the science behind addiction. Pretty trivial. Knowing the science has nothing to do with quittng drinking. I read numerous books on alcoholism years before I got sober. So did many of the people I know in A.A.

I think knowing the medical and psychological aspects of addiction can be helpful. I believe that it can be a factor in quitting, contrary to the dogma of AA that drinking is a metaphysical curse, resistant to everything except magic from above. Some people believe they drink because they are “bad” , immoral or weak willed. Knowing the medical facts about what is going on can at the very least dispel some self-hatred that some drinkers feel. Smokers quit smoking in about 10 seconds when the doctor tells them they have lung cancer. Is that because of divine providence or rational fear based on knowledge?

I have to agree with what GI Joe said about knowing and battle.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I don’t believe in god, I don’t believe that alcoholism is a metaphysical curse that can only be cured by magic from above. No one I know in A.A. believes that either. A.A gives a set of steps that have worked for many alcoholics. Steps 1, 2*, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9**, 10 and 12 are concrete steps for dealing with alcoholism. While *you * might not think they are valid steps, they work for many people. At the same time, knowing the physical and psycological aspects of alcoholism may help some people but it doesn’t seem to do anything for a lot of people. Just knowing the medical facts of a problem, especially when it involves addiction, doesn’t mean seem to do a heck of a lot. Have you ever seen an old man (or woman) pulling along an oxygen bottle and carrying a pack of smokes? I have, in fact I ran into one at the casino today.

If someone tried pulling any ‘It isn’t my fault, it is a metaphysical curse’ crap at any of the meetings I go to, it wouldn’t work. They would be called on it. A.A is a program of personal respsonaiblity. Why do you think the so many of the steps are about taking responsablity for ones actions? Blaiming god or blaming genes isn’t going to fly in A.A, at least at the meetings I go to.

Slee

*#2 need not concern a god in anyway. When I finally decided that I had to get sober or die I had tried everything I could think of to stop drinking. It didn’t work. I finially admitted to myself and came to believe that I could not stop drinking by myself. I needed help to quit. I did not have he power to do it myself.
**#9 was the hardest thing I have ever done.

253

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Call me crazy but I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that these are supernatural beliefs. They also happen to be core tenets of AA.

254

[QUOTE=Evil Joe]

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Call me crazy but I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that these are supernatural beliefs. They also happen to be core tenets of AA.
[/QUOTE]

First, a power greater than oneself doesn’t have to be a god and does not need to be supernatural as I already mentioned. Second, admitting to another person the exact nature of ones wrongs does not require a god. Third you* can* have a spiritual* awakening without believing in god. Forth, having become sober you can carry the message to alcoholics who still suffer without believing in god. The other two are trival if you do not believe in god but are willing to change and a little meditation**, however you do it, is a good thing.

You know, when I first started going to A.A. the discussion of God was this.

Me: “I don’t believe in God”
Various AA members: “OK.”

It hasn’t gone any further in the almost three years I have been sober.

Slee

*Spirit-a fundamental emotional and activating principle determining one’s character.

**the act relaxing the body and focusing one’s mind on a specific target or goal.

255

[QUOTE=sleestak]
I think your 12-step program would be disaterous, especially for a drunk like me.

1. Stop Drinking. A must. A good place to start.
[/quote]
Good deal.

Trivial to the 5% club. Very important to the masses who want to understand their illness and deal with it logically/medically. This step takes some of the mystery out of the “why am I like this?” question. Does science have all the answers yet? Certainly not. But it is a work in progress, which the 80+ year old AA Twelve Steps most certainly aren’t. I would also include this caveat on this step: This Part of Your Recovery Is Subject To Change.

Again, the vast majority of people who try AA fail miserably. This is one of the reasons why. It is preposterous (and dangerous) to ask someone to work on a step that is based on absolutely nothing with regard to alcoholism. Faith is fine for those who believe. If AA were being honest, they’d add a sentence saying something like “If you don’t believe you can hand an internal problem over to an invisible being or an inanimate object, this is totally not going to work for you.” I’ve seen people die trying to “get” this bizarre concept. People come to AA desperate for relief. Give 'em something they can work with!

The logical alcoholic will understand that it involves staying away from drinking activities. They know that there is no higher power watching over them and they know that going to the pool hall is a bad idea, because they’ve learned about triggers in their educational steps.

The alcoholic asshole knows what an asshole he was and has apologized numerous times to everyone he hurt. Actions speak louder than words. No need to talk it to death (well, maybe with a shrink). We’ve all moved on and so should the alcoholic.

You’re in the 5% Club. I’m talking about a program for the other 95%.

It’s not obvious at all! It’s never mentioned in the Steps. *Why not?*Many people are afraid to see a doctor because they don’t want to hear bad news. The “somewhat damaged” liver can recover. People need to know that their health isn’t necessarily a lost cause. The assumption that they can’t get well can make a person give up. This should be the first thing a newbie should hear when he walks into a meeting, because actually some drunks shouldn’t quit drinking right away. They need to detox properly. My SIL was instructed to continue to the drink while she was pulling herself together to get to the hospital.

Sitting around listening to people talk about being drunk can be very enticing for some alcoholics. Your “bottom” may be 100 times worse than another person’s “bottom”, making theirs sound like god damned Disneyland. For many people, its glorious prep for the next bender. The conversation should revolve more around techniques to maintain sobriety and less about how some stranger landed his ass in AA.

Actually, no it’s not. They don’t mention it in the Steps (the guide to a better life). A mandatory physical would reveal any physical damage. A doctor could then advise on what type of exercise would be good for the person at that point in their recovery. You may get this information at a meeting, but you may not. There is nothing in the structure of the organization that addresses this specific issue.

This acts as a reminder. The other steps are the “how”. How do your 12 Steps tell you to deal with the desire to drink? Mine offer a number of options: Antabuse is a good incentive builder. Staying away from triggers is useful. Filling your drinking time with productive distractors is another. My steps are more concrete than the vague, fuzzy code that 95% of the people haven’t managed to crack.

You’re not suggesting that a recovering drunk abandon all previous relationships and just hang with the group, are you? *Of course * some people have toxic relationships. Sober and drunk alike. But most people want to rekindle relationships with their children, spouse, lover, parents, friends, employer. That’s why they’re interested in becoming sober! If you have a handful of people who will hinder your recovery, you avoid them.

He’s been indoctrinated into “The Only Way” so I don’t expect he’d see it the way most alcoholics do.

That’s great. But it’s still painfully obvious that The Organization wants you to “Let Go And Let God” or they wouldn’t keep harping on it. If it was truly secular, all mention of god would be removed from their texts.

The Declaration need not be re-written, per se, but those references are meaningless and as such can be deleted. We don’t need to trash the cash (though nothing would make me happier). We just need to print the new ones without the god reference. It is marginalizing to those of us who don’t believe in, much less “trust” in a higher power. But that’s another rant.

I have many problems with AA, not the least of which is the blatant religiousity of it and their denial of that fact. I believe that faith and alcoholism and recovery are completely unrelated. A true believer who is an alcoholic would never have become one in the first place if faith had anything to do with it. It clouds the issue to attempt to connect the two. That’s not to say that a drunk or former drunk can’t have faith; it’s just that it has nothing to do with his addiction or recovery.

Slee
[/QUOTE]

256

[QUOTE=sleestak]
Well, I don’t believe in god, I don’t believe that alcoholism is a metaphysical curse that can only be cured by magic from above. No one I know in A.A. believes that either. A.A gives a set of steps that have worked for many alcoholics. Steps 1, 2*, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9**, 10 and 12 are concrete steps for dealing with alcoholism. While *you * might not think they are valid steps, they work for many people. At the same time, knowing the physical and psycological aspects of alcoholism may help some people but it doesn’t seem to do anything for a lot of people. **Just knowing the medical facts of a problem, especially when it involves addiction, doesn’t mean seem to do a heck of a lot. ** Have you ever seen an old man (or woman) pulling along an oxygen bottle and carrying a pack of smokes? I have, in fact I ran into one at the casino today.

[/QUOTE]

No one is saying that medical information is the only thing a person needs to know to recover.

257

I meant to delete Slee’s signature from post #255. Can a mod take care of that for me? There’s no “notify” thingy on that post. Thanks.

258

[QUOTE=sleestak]
First, a power greater than oneself doesn’t have to be a god and does not need to be supernatural as I already mentioned. Second, admitting to another person the exact nature of ones wrongs does not require a god. Third you* can* have a spiritual* awakening without believing in god. Forth, having become sober you can carry the message to alcoholics who still suffer without believing in god. The other two are trival if you do not believe in god but are willing to change and a little meditation**, however you do it, is a good thing.

You know, when I first started going to A.A. the discussion of God was this.

Me: “I don’t believe in God”
Various AA members: “OK.”

It hasn’t gone any further in the almost three years I have been sober.

Slee

*Spirit-a fundamental emotional and activating principle determining one’s character.

**the act relaxing the body and focusing one’s mind on a specific target or goal.
[/QUOTE]

But you’re also not following the steps as AA The Organization intended. I repeat…if they’re not necessary, they cloud the issue. I know plenty of people who got hung up on issues such as “how do I actually ask god to remove this curse?” Or “Ok, I asked him, but I’m still craving a drink. What did I do wrong?” Unfortunately, many people understand the term “Steps” to be a concrete blueprint; a means to an end. They can’t take action when they’re stressing over how to interpret mystical directions. Delete them and more people would believe that AA is actually offering them something they can work with. The “program” is so freeform as to be no program at all.

259

Kalhoun, I feel the need to state that this is one of the biggest killers of drunks. If you believe that there is more than just a few like this that could follow your 12 steps and get sober and stay sober, then, you still do not have a handle on things.

Your comments about the D of I just prove to me that you are just wanting to change things to the way you think they should be.

Remember, if your way was so good, there would be a stampede to start that program. Why is it not going, because it is not done in the main stream press? I call BS on that rational.

But anyway, until I get that name of the terrible meeting and it’s location and get cites of the ‘dogma’ and the pressure that people like ** slee** seem to not find in meetings, I figure you are not listening.

I am but one person and so are you. I am a recovering (15+ years) alcoholic, 63 years old and if I die sober, I will have at that point recovered using AA.

I wonder if I’ll ever hear about the recovery program you started, or treatment center or anything along those lines from you.

What I do works for me and many more. It is not the only way.

I hope yours is better, really I do, because too many are dieing out there. We need more solutions. Maybe even a genetic ‘fix’. But for now, I will not gamble my life on your opinions. Maybe others will, are you willing to take the responsibility?

Go find a low bottom drunk and show him your 12 steps, help him all you can and you must forbid him to have anything to do with AA and make sure he does not. Report back on what happens, ok?

I’ll be around, hopefully for many years, so you can let me know how it went.

Be well and warm.

Gus

260

[QUOTE=GusNSpot]
Kalhoun, I feel the need to state that this is one of the biggest killers of drunks. If you believe that there is more than just a few like this that could follow your 12 steps and get sober and stay sober, then, you still do not have a handle on things.
[/quote]
How does this differ from what AA tells you? Do they tell you to go to places you used to associate with drinking? Of course, most people who maintain sobriety can eventually begin to go places where they used to drink, but most people will tell you that it’s best to avoid them in the beginning.

The D of I? I’m not following you. Please don’t tell me that AA is the better way when by their own admission their members fail to stay sober 95% of the time.

As we’ve already covered upthread, the reason there isn’t a stampede is because professionals with a vested interest in AA don’t let people know that there are other techniques that are at least as effective, if not moreso, than anything AA has ever said.

I’m listening…I’m just not buying it. There is no standard meeting. What happens in one may or may not happen in another. I hit those particular meetings (as have others) during times when the members, in all their “personal plan” glory, have done it.

Good for you. I know others who died trying to reach the same goal. One success is important to one person – YOU. It does not mean that it will work for the next person.

I’m not interested in “programs.” I’m interested in people realizing that the bizarre techniques at AA don’t work most of the time and they need to find something that works for them.

That’s correct.

My SIL gambled her life on YOUR opinions…thinking they were a real path to sobriety (because that’s what everyone told her) and she’s dead.

Worked like a charm for my husband.

I’ll be around, hopefully for many years, so you can let me know how it went.

Be well and warm.

Gus
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