Is anyone considering refusing intubation?

I had no idea until this crisis that being intubated for a prolonged time was such a horrible, neverending nightmare for the patient. It sounds like the most horrid situation imaginable (unless you’re the caregiver of many people on ventilators these next two weeks). My father died of pulmonary fibrosis - he didn’t suffer at the end, but I’m not eager to follow his path because I was on a ventilator and damaged my lungs irreparably, after going through gasping horror day after day and somehow coming out the other side.

I don’t know that I’d have the courage to refuse the ventilator, but it never ever would have occurred to me until now to weigh that option.

People who are sick enough to be intubated are not going to be able to make that decision on their own. They need to make their wishes known before they’re ever sick.

As for me, it would depend. If I was in a situation where it was very unlikely that I would come off it (a terrible car accident, that kind of thing), I would not want it unless I was a candidate for organ donation. However, if I was really sick and the odds were better than even that I would come off it and make some degree of recovery? You bet I would want to be intubated.

There are people on this board who have experienced long-term intubations, so they’ll probably have some interesting perspectives on it.

In short, people go on life support all the time (if you have ever had general anesthesia, you have been on life support) and the overwhelming majority of the time, they come off it alive and make a decent recovery.

p.s. I remember the story a couple weeks ago about the elderly priest who refused mechanical ventilation so a younger person could have it, but I suspect that wasn’t the whole story. Maybe he found out the week before that he was terminally ill and didn’t want to suffer?

Yeah, there’s the rub. I’ve never filed an advance directive. Is there some way to do so now? I guess I need a witness or something.

I’m pretty sure you can download the forms.

I plan to die alone in my apartment if I get it and get extremely sick. They can come find my body when the neighbors complain about the smell.

Yup, found the form for CA. Now I need two witnesses. And some time to wring my hands and decide if I want to make that choice.

Yes, I’ve been through major surgery (twice!) so I guess I’ve already been on a ventilator. That makes me feel a bit better, thank you.

Ugh, I’m not going to do that to my college aged son. I hope you have nobody you know who would find your corpse.

N/M

On the plus side, someone can have the couch for free. it’ll probably need a good scrubbing.

Yes. I’m a private person and like my personal space. The idea of being hospitalized for any condition (which I never have) is a nightmare situation for me. I’m pretty sure I would rather die at home than be hospitalized for this, if it comes to it.

From this past Sunday’s Face the Nation on CBS:

– **Michael Dowling, **President & CEO, Northwell Health

Bolding mine.

I’ve been on a prolonged intubation. It was horrible. I was fighting it the whole time. I came off got out of the hospital and healed. I have nightmares about that tube.

I never ever want that again. If it’s for surgery and I wake up w/o it, that’s fine. But long term ‘NOPE’
I’ve told anyone pertinent this is my wish.

A point to consider–soon people might to enjoy ventilation without drugs.

It sounds like I should fill out that directive appropriately. And have a difficult conversation with my son.

From that article,

Oh, the DEA has ‘rules’? Does this cluster fuck ever stop getting worse?
If only there was someone with the authority to tell the DEA not to enforce stupid rules!

CMC fnord!

I have written instructions that I am not to be given such treatment, I have severe COPD and my life was very low quality until I got seriously fit, to come off a machine to find myself back stuck in a chair feeling like I’m drowning, my mood unliftable is my worst nightmare. My psychiatrist who has known me 25 years agrees that I don’t ever need return there, death is preferable. My partner and my friend who has agreed to advocate for me are both on board though I don’t for a minute think they’d find it easy. They know where I was and what it takes each day to not be back there.

My partner on the other hand wants all possible treatment .

Its apparentlynot that bad…

Speaking as someone who has had to make treatment decisions for a loved one…

Having you state your preferences in advance and clearly doesn’t make the decisions “easy”, but it does make them easiER. It helps.

The rate of survival of Covid 19 once you are bad enough off to need a ventilator is very low. And the rate of survival without significant lung and/or other organ damage is lower than that. Ventilators work best for people without pre-existing lung damage who have stopped breathing on their own for some other reason, which isn’t what happens with this virus.

I’m looking for an advance directive.

This article was free on Medscape this morning:

Is Protocol-Driven COVID-19 Ventilation Doing More Harm Than Good?
Sharon Worcester
April 06, 2020