Sorry if I bore you, Pld. You are not forced to read, nor are you impelled to respond. If you choose to banish me from your consideration, well, it will be hard at first, but somehow I will find the strength to go on.
You brought on my riposte by the naked simplicity of your own: that somehow a reminder that innocent people died was a startling revelation.
We know our own, we can count them, memorialize them, weep for them. Who counts the innocent dead in Afghanistan? Mr. Rumsfeld furrows his brow and pronounces it tragic.
That is thier “memorial”, and its all they’re going to get. Our dead are innocent victims, thiers, collateral damage.
I guess I bother you then. But since I actually do care about that, let me help your understanding about what ‘we’ appear to give disproportionate concern with.
Phil, how much control did you, personally have over the 9/11 attacks? I mean, do you remember any publicized plans of bin Laden, any opportunity to protest those plans, any method offered whereby your ideas of appropriate political protest could be conveyed to the terrorists? I don’t remember any of that, either. I just remember being horrified by the events as they happened, and now there’s nothing we can do about the WTC bombing but mourn the dead, rebuild, and change the ways we think about national security.
But as Americans, you and I at the least have the opportunity, through public discourse and through petitioning of our representatives, to influence the actions our government takes on our behalf.
We mourn, we remember, and we honor our dead. These things are neither controversial nor exclusively public. If they are done more quietly than public persuasions, this doesn’t indicate a disproportionate concern for foreign people on the part of those cautioning our government against recklessness; merely an equal concern for justice.
I’m not talking about trying to influence our government to be judicious and appropriate in its responses, xeno. I support that sentiment. I’m just mentally and emotionally weary of hearing so many statements about the victims of the attacks prefaced by a "Yes, but . . . "
The spread that matt described (and I certainly don’t blame him for it or hold him responsible) just irked me because it struck me – whether it is the intent or not, and I’m certainly willing to concede that it’s just me – as yet another implorement for the U.S. to not respond, to roll over and beg for peace and mercy from our enemies, to “set an example” by not seeking justice, another, "Yes, but . . . " Just this one day, I’d like to be able to say, “But nothing.” No buts. Just for one day.
I intend not to watch TV that day; even baseball will not be a way to escape. There is a very good chance the newspapers will be recycled with the rubber bands still around them.
I will grieve for the families (all of the families) who lost parents, children and siblings that day. I will grieve for all who lost loved ones, friends, and even acquaintances that day. I do not need a 24 hour orgy of talking heads to tell me that that day is a somber and sad remembrance of a horrible and vicious tragedy.
I will hope that this sort of thing can be eliminated from the earth. pldenison , I do not understand how you can interpret a peace sign as being an attack on the U.S. It is not, unless, of course, you choose to interpret it that way. Peace is the goal, is it not, one way or the other?
I’m not sick of it. I just don’t plan on watching television at all that day.
I understand that, for some people, an anniversary of this sort is a necessary milestone, something that they need in order to work towards a sense of closure. Those specials are geared towards those people.
I, on the other hand, am of the camp that doesn’t want to relive that horrible day. I don’t need television specials to remember how scared I was, how defensive I was, the way my then-SO told me to stop watching because I was getting hysterical when I saw the pictures… It won’t give me closure; it’ll simply open up more wounds.
However, I am not everyone. Let them run whatever they want. All I need to do is give my friends an extra hug.
I’m not sick of it. I just don’t plan on watching television at all that day.
I understand that, for some people, an anniversary of this sort is a necessary milestone, something that they need in order to work towards a sense of closure. Those specials are geared towards those people.
I, on the other hand, am of the camp that doesn’t want to relive that horrible day. I don’t need television specials to remember how scared I was, how defensive I was, the way my then-SO told me to stop watching because I was getting hysterical when I saw the pictures… It won’t give me closure; it’ll simply open up more wounds.
However, I am not everyone. Let them run whatever they want. All I need to do is give my friends an extra hug.
I was unaware that an innocent American life was worth more than an innocent Afghan life, sealemon, and I thank you for clearing that up. Are innocent American lives also worth more than innocent Malagasy, Sri Lankan, Portuguese, Costa Rican, Swiss, New Zealander, South Korean, Scottish, Jamaican, Norwegian, Panamanian, and Canadian lives too?
Because it implies, to me that the responsibility for creating peace lies in our hands, and I don’t think that it does. Not completely, anyway, and not even primarily, from where I sit. It somehow implies that we in the West are supposed to be the bigger man, or turn the other cheek, or something. As I said, I’m perfectly willing to concede that it’s just me.
Part of the problem (aside from the fact that I am certifiable) is that my office is, as the crow flies, about 3 miles north of the Pentagon. There is obviously going to be a lot of attention paid to the anniversary here on Wednesday, and I don’t think I am emotionally prepared for it. And the last thing that helps, as I said, is more, “Yeah, but . . .” But the world doesn’t revolve around me, so I guess it’s my problem to deal with. It just pisses me off.
pldennison Thank you for explaining, as I now realize, twice. I don’t get that implication; that could just be me. I do hope that Wednesday is not as painful for you as you obviously expect it to be.
Pretty basic, I think it’s a time of healing for many. If it’s annoying, turn off the TV and do something with your family or friends. Do something to show those terrorists that your life hasn’t ended.
Mine certainly hasn’t ended but for me and others the coverage will be hoping a closing to the end of the process.
One thing I might actually cave on is Howard Stern. Starting at 8:45, they are going to rebroadcast last year’s show. Of course, Howard does his show in downtown New York and was probably just as creeped out as everyone else was. If I bother to listen/watch anything, I think I’d check that out.
It was also interesting to go back and read the Fark forums from that day.
I too am going to avoid the coverage. I’m with Angel of the Lord-I do NOT want to be reminded of how freaking terrified I was that day. I remember wanting to curl into a ball and just pull the covers over my head until it all went away. I remember, sitting here, just like I am now, freaking out, just terrified with visions of nuclear war straight out of my nightmares.
I don’t need that again. Wednesday, I’m off from work, I’m going to relax. I don’t need to get all maudlin.
How does a peace sign printed in Quebec, in a newspaper in Quebec, by a Quebecois company, and intended to be read by Francophone Quebecers force any point of view in front of Americans?
I’m sure I have no idea, matt, and I’ve already conceded – twice – that it’s probably just me. Is it OK with you if other people have personal quirks and pet peeves, or should we clear them with the proper authorities first?
No, they’re not collater damage; they were people who have suffered hooribly, first under the Soviets, then under the Taliban , then under the American bombing. Your constan insinuations that you, and you alone, have thought about that are insulting.
Basically, by your logic, we should not have retaliated in any way. There’s no way we could without Al Qaeda hiding behind innocent people.
And please write an answer in simple prose–you can talk down to me if it pleases you, but I would really like a simple answer to how you think we should fight al-Qaeda, and not your usual elliptical ripostes.
Well, gee whiz, Gobear if my posts are to elliptical for you, you could take night courses. Or you could go pound burdocks. Really, there’s lots of different options.
But lets pose the obnoxious question: what is the acceptable kill ratio? How many innocent Afghans were killed? Well, we don’t rightly know, do we? Its all estimates. Hundreds, certainly. Thousands? Possibly. Tens of thousands? Well, no.
Well, ok, so we got a rough approximation.
All right then - so how many Al Queda did we kill? Ten thousand? One thousand? A hundred? One? Gee, same problem again, huh? We don’t know. Not a clue. Not me. Not you.
But then we’re still not sure about our definitions, are we? Perhaps you can instruct us as to your definitions of the acceptable ratio. Ten terrorists to one “CD”? One to one?
I’m not sure about all the options. Our Leader calls it “victory”. I tend more towards “bloody fiasco”.
There is no “acceptable ratio.” You know that, and so does any other decent human. But you didn’t answer the question: how do we exact revenge on Al Qaeda, and more important, how do we destroy their organization so that they can never again attack us?
Another question: every enemt we have fought hid behind a civilian population–should we have done nothing to retaliate against Japan? After all we killed a great many Japanese civilians. (I’ve spent a lot of time there; trust me, we did.)
It’s a horrible calculus, but how do we weigh the consequences of doing nothing versus the consequences of retaliation? Should we have done nothing?
You call our efforts in Afghanistan a “bloody fiasco” but we did dispose of the Taliban regime. What’s your view?
For my part, I’m pissed that the US hasn’t done more to aid the Afghans directly, and that we aren’t helping the Afghans get ready to rule themselves. Karzai is a puppet ruler, and he has the life expectancy of a mayfly.
Still, what do we do to apprehend bin Laden and his gang of murderers? If you were the president, what would you have done differenty?