I don’t know much about civil wars except the one we had, and there was a pretty clear north-south divide. I’m unclear on how a civil war would work when you don’t have clean geographic boundaries for it. I mean, is the Republican down the street going to capture the Democrat’s house next door? Not even in heavily red or blue states is everyone 100% on one side or the other.
Our plan has always been to retire back to Thailand but not until our 70s. Still a few years to go, and we expect the current troubles will be just a memory.
During my previous time in Thailand, I not infrequently encountered fellow Americans who did leave the US because of Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama. They usually just assumed I had done the same as them and because of the same president, whichever one. They always seemed disconcerted once they realized, the few who did, that I was living in Thailand simply because I’ll live anywhere I damned well please.
Many if no most civil wars seem to be without clean geographic boundaries. They seem to be more like the American Revolution, which was also without clean geographic boundaries, and can consist of a lot of intrapersonal conflict and displacement of peoples based on their loyalty or assumed loyalty, correct or not.
(One exception I can think of is the English Civil War, which in England seems to have been fought relatively “cleanly” as far as displaced persons, assassinations, denouncings, etc. go. At least my sense is that it was not even as bad as the American Revolution which itself was relatively confined to displacement and property damage rather than extra-military killings. One surprising thing I found out is that at least according to Wikipedia both the Royalist and Parliamentarian sides often, but not always, released their non-officer prisoners after a battle, which seems way too civil for a civil war.)
In America, if there were a true civil war, I don’t suppose it would be less bloody than the Irish Civil War, in which there were hundreds, scaling up to the current population of america it would be thousands if not tens of thousands, of these politically-motivated killings, in addition to casualties from combat.
Who needs geographic boundaries?
People like to gather and they like to put their plans on Twitter because they’re still basically cosplaying.
You follow a few people on Twitter and then go mow down a few hundred at a time. It’ll add up pretty fast if it really gets going.
Climate change will be the real back-breaker. You see those fires in California right now? Get used to it. You see what’s happening to cities along the Gulf Coast now? Get used to it. There will be cities out West with perpetual water emergencies. There will be a point at which the disruptions become too great and insurance companies are going to start charging a lot more to protect property anywhere that’s prone to the consequences of climate change. If you think our response to COVID-19 has been bad, just wait. Climate change doesn’t just threaten a little disruption; it wipes out civilizations. In fact we owe our evolution, and our near extinction millennia ago, to climate change.
It’s already starting.
I only see the violence escalating between the groups. Now that the right has started shooting at protesters, protesters are going to start shooting back.
We’re already in a low-grade civil conflict. It will escalate because the administration sees it to their advantage to incite such conflicts. It’s a win-win as far as they’re concerned. If their supporters brutalize the opposition and intimidate them, good on them. If, however, the opposition fights back and the clashes become significant, or if some extremist decides to attack Trump supporters in some way, it’ll be dubbed “terrorism,” and we’ve given the executive branch a lot of powers and latitude to deal with that over the years. Guess we assumed that power would never fall into the wrong hands.
I likely can’t leave the US anytime in the next few years, but I confess to daydreaming about it from time to time. I look at our criminal justice system which criminalizes basically harmless offenders because municipal law enforcement and administrative bureaus see ways to use the law as a revenue stream. I look at the trillions our government has wasted on military adventures in the name of “freedom” abroad while being increasingly committed to the cause of anti-freedom at home. And you and I pay taxes for this shit, and I think, why? Sure, even with all its flaws, the US is still not that bad relatively speaking, but other societies aren’t nearly as blatantly hypocritical, which is probably what bothers me the most.
If I had a family or something, then I might have considered leaving for their benefit.
But I’m not going anywhere. If the country ends up in a civil war, then it’s my responsibility to fight for the side that I think is right.
I like this country, and think that it can be a great place. Even if I had a place to go, I would not want to watch the country crumble even from afar.
I will never take up arms against a country that gives me free and fair elections, but I will take up arms, if that is what is necessary, to insist that the country gives me free and fair elections.
This country isn’t necessarily yours or mine.
The way I look at it, my ancestors came here back in the 18th and 19th centuries out of self interest, seeking opportunities and a fresh start. If I were to leave, it would be for the same reason. I’d just be leaving a much older man than they were when they set sail for here, lol.
Still, I have more to gain from standing my ground than from running, even if I could find a place to go to.
Even if Canada welcomed me with open arms, I think I’d still stay to fight things out here.
That’s pretty much my feelings as well. No place really to run to, and if I keep my head down and don’t go looking for trouble it will most likely pass me by. Climate change and the rest will be a bitch, but that’s out of my hands. I’m already doing all I can on that front. Covid will be the active threat for the near future around these parts.
For the first time, my dad (who will be 80 in a couple of months) is semi-seriously talking about pursuing derivative Canadian citizenship through his mother, who was born there. It’s not the cleanest case (there are documentation problems drawing the line from her name as it was on her Canadian birth certificate to her name as it is on his birth certificate), but after that it ought to be a straight shot. And if he can do it, I believe I can then do it through him. I’m debating how hard to push him just so I have a backup plan that doesn’t involve the insanity of Canadian employment-based immigration.
I’m 64 and don’t have anywhere to go, but I’m very anxious for my country. More than I’ve ever been. I’m too old to learn to speak russian.
It’s easy.
Just drink a lot of vodka, and reverse your “R’s”
I can do the vodka part.
I’m going to need to get drunk on Election Day and depending upon the outcome, every day thereafter for the rest of my life.
Run? Never.
Rural Rocky mountains. Water and heat is going to be fine (running year round spring, passive solar heat and plenty of wood). Food is gonna suck, but think I can figure that out. ‘Food’ wanders through our yard all the time. I have a lot of ammo that I got from my Father (he horded it for Y2K), and lot’s of guns for it as well.
I will never run from Trump or his asshole supporters. Sorry to sound like some kind of ‘internet tough guy’ but I absolutely despise Trump with every fiber of my being. His supporters are a close second. I’ll not run.
Your choice.
The members of my family who chose not to run in the 1930’s wound up dead and not buried but tossed out like trash.
The members of my family who got the hell out were the ones who survived.
There are risks either way, so make your choice but don’t put down those who choose differently.
The problem is you often have civil wars where there are not only more than two sides but all of them are, at best, morally compromised. Think of the clusterfuck that’s the Syrian Civil War where there are no real “good guys” just ones that less reprehensible than the others. Then there are the problems of infighting and balkanization where people get so blinded by even minuscule differences that factions and sub-factions develop leading to more violence and backstabbing. In my worst-case nightmare scenario, I don’t see a second American Civil War that’ll be just like the first with two clearcut geographically separated sides with their own governments and military. It will be a messy chaotic affair like Syria, the Spanish Civil War, or the break-up of Yugoslavia that could last for years. If that’s the direction this country is going, it would be best for me to leave (provided I could find a nation that would take me in given that Trump and his supporters have turned all of us into pariahs).
Well, yeah - Trump can’t have people voluntarily leaving his “paradise” - it would make him look bad!
You raise an important point: it’s quite obvious that a conflict is a destabilizing event, but the consequences of breaking down the existing order are often overlooked. Conflict, whether homegrown or as a result of invasion, can spawn splinter groups that didn’t exist or that had limited influence prior to conflict. Al Qaida in Iraq did not exist until after 2003 - the remnants of that group later became ISIS. IIRC, in Syria, Al Nusra were initially considered to be among the more extreme groups affiliated with the anti-Assad resistance - until ISIS.
What would start off as a conflict between “reds” and “blues” could bring all kinds of groups out of the woodwork. It’s not a stretch to think that somewhere in the Heartland you might have a religiously inspired militia that becomes quite violent.