Is ape sign language completely dead?

Factual Questions
61

I remember the last babies we had around here, the twin boys of my son.

Being twins they just did the mama, dada stuff and kinda clammed up. They had their own language of a type. I was teaching them baby signing. Their mother was working with an abbreviated system of advice given her by a speech therapist and doing the mouth shape sounds with them everyday.

Their hearing was checked.

Almost 5yo now, they chatter like squirrels. But it was a concern for a couple of years.

Remembering, their first really good words were of wanting a thing. They were very interested in the world around them but it was mostly wanting something they couldn’t reach, weren’t allowed or dangerous.

Specifically they turned the corner by saying “my toy” or “cookie, please".

Mother worked very hard, as we all did(even the older kids) stretching out their sentences to a “can I have a cookie, please “ kinda thing.

I felt like we were working with Apes for awhile. They did not want to give up their secret language. In preschool they went to a speech therapist a couple times a week. She had to separate them to get very far. They are Pre-K now. And it’s all behind them.

I still sign with them daily. I think they are the best signers in the bunch.

62

You are correct about ASL and sign language not being the same thing. ASL is not English, although it does use English words. Among other things, it has its own slang and grammar, and even has “accents.”

I’ve read about deaf dog owners whose pets did understand certain signs, like “sit” or “roll over.” And while my cat may not communicate with me in words, she definitely has her own language.

63

Hand signs have been used for generations with dogs, deaf or not.

They watch us for signals all they time.

64

True. But it’s also true that the ape’s world was extremely small, encompassing the lab and maybe a small caged play yard. They never saw a fire truck.

65

I do think “language” is too grand a scale to try to impose upon animals. But it’s still worthwhile to explore the extent to which we can communicate between species.

One of the button dog videos that really struck me: The dog wanted to go to the beach. They had several daily walk options but this was her favorite. The “beach” button was broken and wouldn’t sound, so she started pouncing on the “mad” button.

The owner responded, was shown the broken button and began to mess with it, trying to change the battery. Meanwhile the dog paced about frustrated. Finally, the dog settled on “water” and “outside.”

Now I agree that’s not language, but it’s not just imitation either. That dog took the meanings of those words and combined them to get her request across in a new way.

Another was a dog who kept hitting flowers, garden, laundryroom. Over and over while the owners were trying to eat dinner. They discussed between them what that might mean, but essentially ignored the dog, who was increasingly frantic. When they finally realized that whatever this was required immediate attention, they followed the dog to the laundry room to discover that the laundry soap (a flowery scent) was spilling all over the laundry room floor. They could have saved themselves a lot of clean up by listening sooner!

I’ll never have another dog without buttons. Giving them the chance to communicate back - to whatever extent an individual dog is able - seems to me only fair. And I’m a little trepidatious about where this will lead when we start breeding for the skill.

66

It occured to me that the humans on the Lassie, Come Home show could have saved themselves a lot of bother if they’d supplied the dog with buttons. For example, the buttons could be labeled

  • Timmy
  • fell down a well
  • trapped in a cave/old mine
  • captured by bank robbers
  • abducted by space aliens
  • taken prisoner by ICE/CBP
  • whatever they need for this week’s show
67

In what sense does ASL use English words (genuine question)?

In any case, while a sign language is not spoken, it is a language language, as opposed to body language.

68

My roommate is a small parrot.

He has a vocabulary of words and sounds with which he communicates with humans. I emphasize communicate. He does not use syntax or grammar, but he does communicate.

My husband and I did not use treats to explicitly train him in this. What he gets is attention - something highly social parrots also crave.

It’s an interesting thing that pet parrots will sometimes use human words between themselves. But, again, no syntax or grammar. Communication? Yes. Language as we use the term? No. But it is nonetheless pretty cool, convenient, and sometimes very useful to have your non-human roommate be able to communicate with you.

I do find it interesting that parrots, specifically African Grey parrots, have been known to actually ask questions. Alex Pepperridge, much of whose training involved identifying colors of objects, once looked himself in a mirror and asked “what color?” (Yes, many if not most large parrots can recognize that the bird in the mirror is themself and not another bird). There is another African Grey featured on YouTube named Einstein whose owner has taught the bird to identify shape and color, much like Alex did. One of the questions the trainer frequently asks the bird is “what made of?” and the bird identifies wood, glass, rock etc. On one video, when presented with something new, Einstein asks “what made of?” So parrots, or at least African Grey parrots, will ask humans a question.

So far as I know apes have not been known to ask questions of their human handlers.

Which is not to deny that apes communicate, just that they don’t have a complex language like humans do. Which is not to imply that parrots are capable of complex human language, just that they are capable of communicating with humans using human words.

69

I was more of a “ranger years” watcher.

  • mountain lion cubs
  • baby eagles
  • horse
  • small child
  • racoon
  • bear cub
  • park ranger

threatened by

  • flood
  • eagle
  • bear
  • lightning storm
  • loco weed
  • mountain lion

at

  • cave den
  • open range
  • below a dam
  • mountain cabin
  • up a tree
  • river rapids
  • trapped by fallen rock

bring

  • jeep
  • warm clothes
  • horse
  • food
  • ladder
  • helicopter
  • pry bar
  • rope

eta: and she needs a button for “can we do that again!” for after the log flume ride

70

It was Pinker who said teaching apes sign language was about as worthwhile as teaching humans to hoot and shriek like apes.

71

Timmy never fell into a well, requiring Lassie to rescue him. Not sure if this is just meme-lore of the Mandela Effect.

When you spell out an english word, when there is no known (to the user anyway) ASL term.

72

It was just a joke. Don’t try to overanalyze it.

73

It is a fakelore meme, and perhaps Mandela Effect. This is the SDMB, a perfect place to overanalyze anything! :grinning_face:

74

We all know Timmy was never in a well.

It was a cave with a broken leg. I swear. I can see it in my head.

75

Mineshaft, so you are very very close. :sports_medal:

76

I would definitely agree with this. I’d also point out the not all communication is language per se.

I communicate with my dog more in signs and gestures than words. It happened by accident, I just noticed that she was reacting correctly to my commands before I ever voiced them, and it was because my body language was signaling what was coming next.

So I made a “vocabulary” of signs for all the commands we do, and I can lead her through a sequence of about 10 distinct behaviors without saying a single word. Very impressive party trick.

Additionally she has her own language of about 2 expressions, which are “I want something” and “no, not that”. She’s a smart girl, I bet she’s capable of more, but to my shame I just haven’t bothered developing it.

This is communication, and there’s a bit of vocabulary and context, but it’s not language. It’s just commands. You see this sign, you do this behavior, you get this treat. Re-ordering them doesn’t get a different outcome, there’s no internal structure, no shading or inflection, no clauses. It sounds like this is exactly the situation with ape “language”, which although it was communication, it was really not language at all, just commands, stimula, and responses.

77

@TruCelt, dogs using the buttons has been fun for me and Bayliss.

When you’re looking for a dog who may succeed, look for a dog who is good at “target" type games. Hold your finger pointing up, not at the dog. If they touch with their nose or perhaps use their paw. You’ll have better luck.

Some dogs have a foot fear issue. So the nose is very important.

Sound sensitive dogs may have less interest unless you can record a voice that is very calm and quiet.

Don’t think you’ll have long heart to heart conversations with your dog. The YouTube videos make it look like these sessions happen all together. That’s not what happens. Bayliss walks by the button place in my room. Stops. Looks, pushes a button, looks at me. I respond what i think is appropriate. He generally walks away or lays down.

If I push a button, he comes running. I make a request such as “Talk” “hmmm?”. Usually the answer is play or treat.

Occasionally I get out or potty.

Very occasionally I get him tattling on the Chihuahuas or the kids.

Sometimes he walks by and pushes something that really astounds. It’s rare.

This is over weeks. Not one 10min video.

You’ll need a place for the buttons. It would be very inconvenient in the middle of your living room.

The button and arrays are not indestructible so with puppies you’ll have to watch for chewing behaviors.

The kits are not cheap.

It helps if you’re with your dog 24/7. It takes dedication. And can be very rote and boring. Repetitive training is key.

Good luck I hope you have as much fun as we have doing the buttons, with Bayliss.

78

This. I saw the episode when it first aired, and for some godforsaken reason have never forgotten it.

79

I can just see his crooked little leg in the jeans with a hole in the knee and high top chucks on his dogs(not to be confused with Lassie the dog).

80

I myself had a Mandela effect on top of the Mandela effect: I always thought the “Mandela effect” referred to a quote by Marianne Williamson being mistakenly attributed to Mandela. I only just found out it was something completely different, something I had difficulty believing. They thought Mandela had died in prison, while I have a clear memory of listening to live reporting on the radio as he walked out of prison that day in 1990, so it never even occurred to me that anyone could make that mistake.