Is being a sociopath a job requirement for salesmen these days?

The BBQ Pit
1

It just seems like the old fashioned honest salesman that made his living by believing in and knowing his product, and making a fair commission, has become a thing of the past.

Whether it’s cars, real estate, consumer electronics or whatever, lying to the customer seems to be the rule, gouging the customer is the only goal, laziness reigns and product knowledge is out the window. The things I overhear at Best Buy and Fry’s make me cringe. Those twerps seem to get jollies seeing how much BS they can tell a customer and still make a sale!

Don’t get me started on car and real-estate salesmen. All these people seem to be without any sense of morality, and isn’t that pretty much the definition of a sociopath?

What does the job interview go like?

“So, you are applying for a job in our sales department? Have you ever been diagnosed as a sociopath? Very Good! Good sociopaths are getting hard to find, what with so many of them winding up in prison! Oh, you just got out? Perfect, when can you start?”

/trying to buy property and thinking of buying a car :eek:
//yeah, I’m bitter

2

Sounds about right. Whether it’s bait-and-switch or hidden costs etc. there’s always some reason you have to pay extra.

Tool at your disposal: the internet. Last time I bought a car I found it on line and communicated anonymously with them—wouldn’t even give them my phone number till I knew they had what I wanted at a price I was willing to pay. Even then, they were trying to screw me and I stood to leave, shook his hand and thanked him for the time. It really spooked him and he suddenly got all reasonable with me.

Advice you didn’t ask for: a real estate agent told me you buy the house first. They’ll usually loan money for a car if you already have a house payment, but if you buy the car first you may not qualify for the home loan. Stupid, but noteworthy.

3

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]

Advice you didn’t ask for: a real estate agent told me you buy the house first. They’ll usually loan money for a car if you already have a house payment, but if you buy the car first you may not qualify for the home loan. Stupid, but noteworthy.
[/QUOTE]
Buying land, not a house, and paying cash.

4

I am a car salesperson, and I understand your frustration. I can’t speak for all the other salespeople of the world, only myself. We get frustrated with you customers too, for various reasons. You can take a look at my post history, and while you might come to the conclusion that I’m crazy, you won’t find that I’m a sociopath.

The twerps out there getting their jollies are not professionals who know their product, but instead are proud of their bullshit skills. Bullshit skills don’t get you very far. Customers can see through bullshit.

Gouging the customer isn’t the goal, but making a profit certainly is. I personally get frustrated at customers who don’t think we should be allowed to make a profit. I understand that you want to make your best deal, but my dealership has to make a profit in order to stay in business. They have to make a profit in order to pay me. I like to get paid for my work, don’t you?

As for the job applicants…they are screened pretty thoroughly. No we aren’t looking for crazy people or ex-felons. They are way too much of a liability.

If it makes you feel any better, there ARE good people out there in sales jobs. There are some rotten ones too, and I hope you don’t have to deal with any of those.

5

[QUOTE=Happy Wanderer]
Buying land, not a house, and paying cash.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, yes. Last I knew, buying land is a cash-only proposition.

Only other suggestion I can think of is to make them fight for your business. A piece of land is unique, so that’s harder. I think next time I buy a car I’m going to email a dozen places, all in the SAME email, let them know I’ve found their competitors.

To: BobJonesHonda@bjh.com, TomSmithMotors@tsm.com, (etc.)

I’m looking to buy a 2010 Honda Civic. I’d like X Y Z on it and I’m willing to pay $20,000 out the door (more financial details). Anybody want to sell a car today?

6

The problem isn’t the salesmen, it’s the company. When I worked for La-z-Boy, I had nearly a month of product knowledge training before I got any sales training. Some customers needed to hear all that, others I didn’t even have to try at all. It was cool to know that IF I needed it though i had that knowledge at my disposal. Unfortunately in the two arenas you spoke of, you are dead on the money with your assessment. Any monkey can sell electronics, because of demand. Same goes for real estate until you get over the 3 large/ .5 mil mark.

Customers today are harder though, hence the evolution of the salesman. They aren’t as level or even-tempered either, and have the attention span of three-year-olds on crystal meth.

7

Well places like Best Buy mostly hire teenage retards who don’t give a shit.
I don’t know if they are diagnosed sociopaths, but I work with a fair number of people who I consider a bit “off”. Professional services (consulting, accounting, banking, law) does seem to hire a fair number of people who are completely full of shit. Whether it’s a business developer who talks big but doesn’t deliver, a project manager who batters his team with unreasonable and ridiculous requests or a manager that takes all the credit for everyone elses work, there are certainly a lot of self-centered assholes who don’t give a shit about anyone or anything other than their own career.

8

[QUOTE=Hockey Monkey]
Gouging the customer isn’t the goal, but making a profit certainly is. I personally get frustrated at customers who don’t think we should be allowed to make a profit. I understand that you want to make your best deal, but my dealership has to make a profit in order to stay in business. They have to make a profit in order to pay me. I like to get paid for my work, don’t you?

[/QUOTE]

Sure, you should make a profit, but should you make 6 figures and up for talking to people while they look at cars? In my opinion, no. There are people with far more important and difficult jobs that make far less.

Same goes for loan officers. These guys generally have no experience or product knowledge. Their only skill is manipulating the terms of the loan as much as possible in their favor without breaking any laws. They’re “selling” something that the customer already knows they need, so they don’t even have to be good salesmen. And for this they make 6 figures? I’m sorry, no. That’s crooked.

The whole sales system and mentality in this country should be re-evaluated in my opinion. Salesmen should earn a living wage hourly (or yearly, whatever) and get small, reasonable incentives for performance.

I’m not saying this will ever happen because businesses would just compete themselves right back into the old model to get the “best” (dirtiest) salesmen, but that’s my 2 cents.

9

[QUOTE=Cisco]
Sure, you should make a profit, but should you make 6 figures and up for talking to people while they look at cars? In my opinion, no. There are people with far more important and difficult jobs that make far less.

Same goes for loan officers. These guys generally have no experience or product knowledge. Their only skill is manipulating the terms of the loan as much as possible in their favor without breaking any laws. They’re “selling” something that the customer already knows they need, so they don’t even have to be good salesmen. And for this they make 6 figures? I’m sorry, no. That’s crooked.

The whole sales system and mentality in this country should be re-evaluated in my opinion. Salesmen should earn a living wage hourly (or yearly, whatever) and get small, reasonable incentives for performance.

I’m not saying this will ever happen because businesses would just compete themselves right back into the old model to get the “best” (dirtiest) salesmen, but that’s my 2 cents.
[/QUOTE]

In all fairness, a lot of people in sales are independent contractors. That means finding/buying their own health insurance.

10

[QUOTE=Happy Wanderer]
It just seems like the old fashioned honest salesman that made his living by believing in and knowing his product, and making a fair commission, has become a thing of the past.

Whether it’s cars, real estate, consumer electronics or whatever, lying to the customer seems to be the rule, gouging the customer is the only goal, laziness reigns and product knowledge is out the window. The things I overhear at Best Buy and Fry’s make me cringe. Those twerps seem to get jollies seeing how much BS they can tell a customer and still make a sale!

Don’t get me started on car and real-estate salesmen. All these people seem to be without any sense of morality, and isn’t that pretty much the definition of a sociopath?

What does the job interview go like?

“So, you are applying for a job in our sales department? Have you ever been diagnosed as a sociopath? Very Good! Good sociopaths are getting hard to find, what with so many of them winding up in prison! Oh, you just got out? Perfect, when can you start?”

/trying to buy property and thinking of buying a car :eek:
//yeah, I’m bitter
[/QUOTE]

I’m guessing that you aren’t including B to B salesmen. If you are including them, then you’re way off.

I’d probably go one step further & say that you’re just way off all around. When I go to clothing stores, the staff are very helpful 75% of the time. My most recent trip to Circuit City was absolutely awesome. There is a very well-known jewelry store in Atlanta that is chock-full of dynamite salespeople who save me a greta deal of time and money on specific items. My Realtor hasn’t sold my current construction project, but I know other builders who are in lurve with their agents.

That being said, the profession has more than its share of overly-ambitious assholes.

11

[I’m looking to buy a 2010 Honda Civic. I’d like X Y Z on it and I’m willing to pay $20,000 out the door (more financial details). Anybody want to sell a car today? [/QUOTE]

I bought a new Honda Civic last August and paid $25,000 AU for it. Never been happier in ANY car I’ve owned. The follow up service and 5 year warranty are excellent and the sales guy was brilliant - no hard sell. You won’t be sorry with a Civic.

Sorry - thought you wanted a car - my bad! But a Civic is nice … And of course you want the model that won’t be released for 2 years … :smack:

12

[QUOTE=Acid Lamp]
The problem isn’t the salesmen, it’s the company. …Customers today are harder though, hence the evolution of the salesman. They aren’t as level or even-tempered either, and have the attention span of three-year-olds on crystal meth.
[/QUOTE]

I definately agree with the statement “it’s the company”. I worked in sales & I was honest, knew my products, and recommended what would work for the customer in the customer’s best interest, not what’s best for my pocket… therefore, not making the company big bucks on the short run. The company that I spent so many years with had changed from being honest and respectable that didnt tolerate sly workers, into one of those "another one of “those” companies that hire just about anyone off the street because turnover is so high & they dont practice what they preach.

Customers are a pain sometimes too. I’d be honest with them but because it wasnt the cheapest deal they would step away to think about it. Next thing I know, they’re wanting to see me because they bought something else from someone else that didnt work for them. So, not only did I lose the sale, but I would have to process the return/exchange because I was the one honest with them. Yeah, thanks people for taking away from my paycheck in more than one way.

13

[QUOTE=Cisco]
Sure, you should make a profit, but should you make 6 figures and up for talking to people while they look at cars? In my opinion, no. There are people with far more important and difficult jobs that make far less.

Same goes for loan officers. These guys generally have no experience or product knowledge. Their only skill is manipulating the terms of the loan as much as possible in their favor without breaking any laws. They’re “selling” something that the customer already knows they need, so they don’t even have to be good salesmen. And for this they make 6 figures? I’m sorry, no. That’s crooked.

The whole sales system and mentality in this country should be re-evaluated in my opinion. Salesmen should earn a living wage hourly (or yearly, whatever) and get small, reasonable incentives for performance.

I’m not saying this will ever happen because businesses would just compete themselves right back into the old model to get the “best” (dirtiest) salesmen, but that’s my 2 cents.
[/QUOTE]

Fuck you Cisco, coffee is for closers :). I invite you to do what I do for just 3 months and then come back to me about how “easy” a sales job is. I bust my ass for my clients day in and day out, and contrary to what you seem to think, even though people need what I sell, it takes a lot of work and skill to close the deal, not just for my benefit but for theirs. I’m a professional and I produce-and I deserve to be compensated accordingly. Sales is one of the last pure jobs where you get paid up to your ability and not down to an enforced mediocrity.

14

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
Ah, yes. Last I knew, buying land is a cash-only proposition.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, not necessarily. We bought an acre and a half and we got a land loan from our credit union. And these days, finding land for under 6-figures in this area is next to impossible. Granted, I don’t run with high-rollers, but I don’t know too many people who have that kind of cash at hand.

As to the OP, I’ve had great and sucky car salesmen, great and sucky real estate agents, competent and annoying salesfolk of most kinds. When they’re good, they’re wonderful. When they’re bad, they are truly evil…

15

[QUOTE=Cisco]

Same goes for loan officers. These guys generally have no experience or product knowledge. Their only skill is manipulating the terms of the loan as much as possible in their favor without breaking any laws. They’re “selling” something that the customer already knows they need, so they don’t even have to be good salesmen. And for this they make 6 figures? I’m sorry, no. That’s crooked.

The whole sales system and mentality in this country should be re-evaluated in my opinion. Salesmen should earn a living wage hourly (or yearly, whatever) and get small, reasonable incentives for performance.

I’m not saying this will ever happen because businesses would just compete themselves right back into the old model to get the “best” (dirtiest) salesmen, but that’s my 2 cents.
[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry, but this is ridiculous. I’m wondering if you’ve ever met a loan officer other than a mortgage lender, which isn’t even considered a “sales” position by most banks. A good commercial or corporate loan officer is worth his or her weight in gold. As a matter of fact, those loan officers are quite crucial to the success of any bank.

Besides, “degree of difficulty”, or any other arbitrary criterion, is a rather stupid way to determine someone’s pay. They tried that recently in certain countries and failed miserably. People are paid based on what someone is willing to pay them, and that willingness is based on their worth to their employer.

16

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Fuck you Cisco, coffee is for closers :). I invite you to do what I do for just 3 months and then come back to me about how “easy” a sales job is. I bust my ass for my clients day in and day out, and contrary to what you seem to think, even though people need what I sell, it takes a lot of work and skill to close the deal, not just for my benefit but for theirs. I’m a professional and I produce-and I deserve to be compensated accordingly. Sales is one of the last pure jobs where you get paid up to your ability and not down to an enforced mediocrity.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

I’m not sure where you come up with your 6 figures as compensation though. The *average * car salesperson makes around $36000 a year on commission only. Only the very cream are making 6 figures. And its a hard job with very long hours. The skilled people make it look easy. It’s not nearly as easy as you think it is.

17

I doubt that your dealership is going to let you sell a car (assuming since you said dealership) at any kind of loss at all. No matter what amount of money the car is ultimately sold for, it will include some sort of profit. That profit may be incredibly small, but there will be one. My goal is to pay the absolute least I can for the item I want because I like having money just as much as you do.

The salesman never ever gets my sympathy. He is not on my side and does not represent my interests. He represents the interests of someone who is attempting to get money from me, as much of it as possible for the item he is selling, and as such is properly regarded and treated as an adversary, not a friend.

That’s not my concern. Whether or not the salesman can pay his bills is his problem, not mine, and does not enter into my negotations. See above: the salesman is not my friend. He is my adversary.

I’m not afraid of them disliking me or saying anything nasty about me. I am not afraid to leave at any point if I don’t like the deal. Business is war.

18

[QUOTE=catsix]

That’s not my concern. Whether or not the salesman can pay his bills is his problem, not mine, and does not enter into my negotations. See above: the salesman is not my friend. He is my adversary.
[/QUOTE]

That’s a common attitude. Foolish, but common. You may have some justification for feeling that way if you’re dealing with someone who is just looking for a single commission, but not all salesmen are just paid for the sale and nothing else. I get paid over time-as long as a client stays on the books, I make money. My focus is on establishing a relationship and working with the client to design what is best for their particular situation, which in turn means they stay on the books longer and, if I’ve done my job right, send a bunch of their friends to me. Someone who treats me as an adversary isn’t worth my time. “You know what? Here’s a clearinghouse website, knock yourself out”. They don’t deserve the professional service that I offer.

19

[QUOTE=catsix]
That’s not my concern. Whether or not the salesman can pay his bills is his problem, not mine, and does not enter into my negotations. See above: the salesman is not my friend. He is my adversary.

I’m not afraid of them disliking me or saying anything nasty about me. I am not afraid to leave at any point if I don’t like the deal. Business is war.
[/QUOTE]

Oh but it DOES enter into your negotiations. He can refuse to sell to you if his costs and profit margin aren’t covered. If he isn’t running a lean business and/or his markup is too high, the free market allows you to go elsewhere to find a better deal. Or if he has plenty of customers willing to pay full price, he can tell you to get lost.

But if you aren’t finding that better deal, then maybe you need to do some re-evaluating or expand your search.

20

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Fuck you Cisco, coffee is for closers :). I invite you to do what I do for just 3 months and then come back to me about how “easy” a sales job is. I bust my ass for my clients day in and day out, and contrary to what you seem to think, even though people need what I sell, it takes a lot of work and skill to close the deal, not just for my benefit but for theirs. I’m a professional and I produce-and I deserve to be compensated accordingly. Sales is one of the last pure jobs where you get paid up to your ability and not down to an enforced mediocrity.
[/QUOTE]

You’re exactly right. I should’ve given a counter-example. There are amazing sales people out there, but I think they are a dying breed, especially at the lower levels. My grandfather was a phenomenal business to business salesman. He won national awards the man stuck to his word like glue.

:rolleyes: I was a wholesale account manager for 5 years. My job was to hold loan officers’ hands.