Is Black Patriotism different than White Patriotism?

Great Debates
1

I hit on something in the Obama Speech thread I’d like to explore in a little more depth. I wrote:
We are fundamentally imperfect in this country on the issue of race. To help get on the path of perfection we have to acknowledge that which is not perfect. That is exactly what Obama is trying to do, the very thing that is most difficult in this campaign and infact in this country. This country has a hard time looking at that which is real and this is a problem. Some Americans understand that, others refuse to look at it, and some denounce it.
Obama is not his church - Obama is tradition and is trying to work through the compexities of race. I don’t expect everyone to understand - but if you want to listen you’ve got to hear it. This is a moment in this nations civil religion -and Obama has made a contribution to that with his speech.
A day after the speech pundits, ambassadors, professors, lawyers, civil rights activists and journalists are finally talking and what people are saying is that his speech was great, historic. HOWEVER, this country, may not be ready for this kind of talk.

I called NPR when they were talking about this about a half an hour ago, and when I finally reached them I was screened. I was asked: What would you like to say? I responded with a basic response saying I’d like to comment on how positively the speech effected me etc…etc… The woman said, sorry, but too many people are calling saying the same thing…we need differing views.

I thought that was good - get the whole picture on the subject. I continued to listen and one very clear thread came out of the discussion: America may not be ready for so much change, that the last time this amount of change happened was in the 60’s with the likes of MLK. To that end I’ll say this:

Why are we as a nation so afraid of that kind of change? What would be so wrong in admiting Obama may in fact be in the caliber of Martin Luther King Jr?

Nothing, absolutely nothing in my opinion. I think BHO is in the same league, as much as he is a social change agent as much as he makes us look at our own civil religion in this country he is in the same category as MLK. I have no problem what-so-ever standing up for that belief, and when I hear people try and tear it down I do get angered. But that’s where the anger ends…at the tip of my nose. I respect my fellow Americans too much to shove my views down their face, and I respect my fellow Americans too much to not admit I have a voice, and that is why I vote Obama. That is why some of you vote Clinton, and that is why some of you vote McCain, and others stay home.

Black patriotism and white patriotism is no different when talking about one country, this country. I love America, I love what this nation stands for, but I will not be forced to sit on my hands…

Is there a difference between black and white patriotism?

2

I’m not getting what your OP title has to do with the rest of your post, which is basically a positive review of Obama’s speech (and Obama in general). Could you spend some time on the actual title and clarify what the OP is?

3

What, and detract from extolling the numerous virtues of Obama? What for? Aren’t you just in awe of the guy? :wink:

Phlosphr: Does your wife know you called NPR?

4

Yes, we’re both home with the flu. :frowning: I’m probably talking through my medication.
I’ve been laid up for two days and am a little dilerious from cabin fever…and a real fever.

5

I say this as an Obama supporter, but this is a load of crap.

There is nothing special about this time that makes this country “ready” for an African-American President. Obama is an amazing speaker who is saying things that this country wants to hear. But if you had a candidate who tapped into the population like this four years ago, eight years ago, twelve years ago, you would have seen the same thing.

To steal a quote from MLK, it’s the content of his character, not the color of his skin that matters in this race.

6

Just an FYI I am posting under the strict guidance of modern chemistry due to the flu, so I am sorry if I am not making as much sense as I usually exhibit.

7

But 20 years ago, you would not have.

8

Honestly, I haven’t even heard his most recent speech because I think the whole “Obama’s pastor is a big crazy urban legend-loving black man” is being blown way out of proportion.

Obama is not his pastor and Obama’s pastor is not running for President, so why should I give a crap what his pastor thinks about anything? It’s a non-issue, so I haven’t listened to Obama’s response to it.

But what your last post has to do with your OP, I’ll never know.

9

I really hate to say this, but I’m actually happy the OP is on flu medication and not Kool-Aid.

10

I’ll answer the OP (or the title, at least):

Black American patriostism seems to me to be largely coincident with general American patriotism – except when it isn’t.

Break that down: Most black Americans have been in the country long enough that this American experience is all they (we) have. The resentment of slavery (or of past economic and social-justice wrongs to any number of groups) can, for most people, eventually take a back seat to muddling through what is, at the end of the day, one of the least-worst societities in which to live.

I wrote the other day about Joe Louis, who – despite growing up under segregation, etc. – was a true and active patriot in his military service. There is still a significant black presence in the military, not incidentally.

I think black patriotism diverges only when individual blacks or groups purposefully try to cut themselves off from the mainstream. They can do this by willful embrace of an amoral “thug culture” (at which point I’d submit they’ve abandoned not only “American patriotism” but more globally, any form of a social contract), or by flirtation with various fringey “secessionist” viewpoints. The latter can take the form of crazy-ass Black Israelite theology, somewhat-silly and naive back-to-Africa/black isolationism (Garvey, Farrakhan), or just believing in mentally-lazy Snopes fodder (the CIA invented AIDS, and the government really profits from selling crack!). All these types would necessarily become to some degree “anti patriotic” because “Amerikkka” for them plays the necessary role of The Other (puppetmaster, slavemaster, colonialist, unclean Gentile).

While the lazy-urban-legend-believing, O.J.-was-framed viewpoint is troublingly more prevalent than I’d like to see, black Americans aren’t the only ones to fall prey to silly conspiracy mongering; our culture’s increasingly a juvenile one, and it’s no shock that black communities in which fathers are often absent and “book learning” is looked on suspiciously by some would buy into silliness in some numbers (less-educated white Evangelicals also fall for a lot of hooey). Other than that, the number of blacks who seriously dislike or don’t support America in any active way would, I think, be refreshingly low. Moving to Africa turns out not to be very appealing to most Americans, white or black. (Heck, I remember the comedian who said he could never follow Farrakhan because “them suits would get really hot in the Summer – can’t the black Muslims get a shorts set or something?”).

In contrast, say, to some immigrant groups (whose affiliation with the American project I would wonder about), blacks didn’t come here (mostly) just for economic advantage; they aren’t moving anywhere else; when they participate in politics, it’s American politics; and their fortunes (perhaps more so than those of globally mobile elites) are tied to those of America. In sum, I think their self-interest is aligned with their self-identification as Americans (which is, writ large, “patriostism”).

11

There is also a significant lower-class presence in the military, not coincidentally, and not because the lower classes are any more patriotic than the middle or upper.

Dated, but not otherwise crazy.

12

Frankly, the middle class and working class are on the whole more patriotic than the upper class.

13

First off, I can’t seem to make a connection between the part of your post that I’ve quoted and the previous part I omitted, but I’d like to answer your question.

Yes, there is a difference, a huge difference I believe. By and large, white Americans today see the country as their country, “their” being black and white.
And many whites have reasons to be proud and patriotic including giving blacks and equal place in society and making great strides against their own racism

Black Americans, many, see their country as given to them by whites. Whites ended slavery. Whites gave them the vote. Johnson brought in civil rights legislation(Why Clinton really gaffed on bringing that up). There’s no reason for patriotic pride here. There is a pride in their struggle to influence whites, but that doesn’t translate into a characteristic of the nation to be proud of for them.

But I have no doubt that black Americans yearn to feel patriotic for America. Even when one of them cries “God damn America” I sense a burning frustration and desire for inclusion. Feeling patriotic for your country is a very good feeling, and this is my opinion and lets just leave it at that, but I think Obama by his qualities and his black skin will make black Americans proud, and proud to be American.

And make white America proud as well.

14

I think there is a difference. The relationship between a White American and America can be unreserved - the citizen loves America and America loves him back. For Black Americans there’s going to be a “but”. Black Americans may love America and America may love them back - but not as much as America loves White Americans.

It’s like if you and your brother both love you father and your father loves both of you. But your brother is your father’s favorite and everyone knows it. It’s gnawing to know that the primary object of your love does not requite the feeling and you’re only the secondary object of his love.

15

While I value understatement, I’d submit that your metaphor could very credibly go further…

It was active neglect and at times outright malice. And not simply an unrequited love.

At this point… that metaphor almost works.

There’s a simple truism I like to keep in mind. Perception will (almost) always lag reality. It’s a reality. And it’s that way for a reason.

16

In response to the OP and in particular this portion of his post:

I think that ‘may in fact’ is the operative portion of that passage.

Obama is at this point nothing but talk. Inspirational talk, that has accomplished what? Well, it’s gotten people to campaign for him. Whoop-de-doo.

If he can take that support and turn it into change driven by the people, then you’d have a good MLK comparison. Until then he’s just a charismatic politico.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m fully behind Obama in the race for the presidency, and I find him refreshing and inspiring. But, until we see that inspiration turn to actual change, comparisons to MLK will only be (and pardon the pun) skin deep. Time will bear out Obama’s legacy, and I hesitate to assign a legacy to him before he even has a chance to begin his career as a national politician.

17

My point was that in assessing whether blacks are “less patriotic” it is not irrelevant to point out that, at a minimum, they don’t (other than the fringe exceptions I pointed out) seem to “hate” America, or, for instance, to be actively disinclined to shun the military (hatred of or disdain for the military being a reasonable proxy for what people think of as “unpatriotism.”).

And military membership is not a one-to-one function of economic status. I’d suspect Filipino-Americans of a given income level join the military in greater numbers than other groups of the same income, because for historic reasons, Filipino culture has often been very pro-American. Notre Dame and Yale, or Brandeis, or Tulane, all enroll middle-class to upper-middle-class students. Notre Dame has a far higher ROTC participation rate than those peer schools. Economics is not destiny, and a fair argument can be made that Notre Dame students, or Filipino-Americans, or blacks, by their membership rates in the military, are no less than, and possibly more, patriotic vis a vis other cohorts, who may have different assumptions about the content and value of American “patriotism.” If we want to debate the definition of “patriotism,” that is of course another issue.

The full-on-crazy argument I have heard has not been “elements associated with the CIA once fostered long-ago activities under which U.S. proxies thought helpful in a geopolitical anti-communist struggle may have received six-figure sums through crooked drug transactions,” which at most amounts to a lie-down-with-dogs, get-up-with-fleas critique of the murkiness of using corrupt proxies to exert influence in corrupt parts of the world (prosecutors similarly are criticized when they use confidential informants who – not surprisingly – are not Seventh Day Adventist lay-preachers but are instead elements of the criminal lowlife world on which they are positioned to inform). The versions I have heard are to the effect that “of course the government can’t shut down the crack trade because they make so much money off of it.” Your cite provides no evidence that “the government” (as opposed to rogue agents) ever used drug trafficking as a profit center; that the “profits” from those ill-considered collaborations ever exceeded a drop in the bucket for anyone; or that the fostering of the crack trade remains a business model for “the government.”