Barack Obama - America's passionate patriot

Great Debates
1

Even as Senator McCain was rehashing day-old news to audible yawns from reporters, and revelling in political opportunities to take gratuitous swipes at Barack Obama, the Senator from Illinois was giving a rousing speech in Missouri that at times could scarcely be heard over the thunderous applause and ear-shattering cheers because of its uplifting view of America’s greatness and bright future. The speech was delivered in Independence, the home of President Truman, as the day approaches when America celebrates her independence from foreign tyranny.

The text of his speech is online at Cerebral Politics. It is the latest in a series of great speeches that will doubtless be remembered as the Patriotism Speech. For concerned McCain apologists, Obama said this:

Beyond a loyalty to America’s ideals, beyond a willingness to dissent on behalf of those ideals, I also believe that patriotism must, if it is to mean anything, involve the willingness to sacrifice – to give up something we value on behalf of a larger cause. For those who have fought under the flag of this nation – for the young veterans I meet when I visit Walter Reed; for those like John McCain who have endured physical torment in service to our country – no further proof of such sacrifice is necessary. And let me also add that no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters on both sides.
But I don’t want this debate to be about bashing McCain. I want Obama’s supporters to take a critical look at the speech, as I have done, and examine it on its merits.

Suggestions for debate: (1) Which particular portion or portions of the speech are the most meaningful to you personally? (2) How will the world react to a resurgence of American patriotism when it is cast in such a positive light? (3) Will the market respond to this message about the next president’s bright outlook? For Democrats, (4) how does it feel to have a candidate who so eloquently defines patriotism, wrestling it away from the grip of George Bush and his party. And perhaps most importantly, (5) can typical American conservatives grasp the nuances in this speech about such things as patriotic dissent?

Regarding the last point, here is an exerpt:

Of course, precisely because America isn’t perfect, precisely because our ideals constantly demand more from us, patriotism can never be defined as loyalty to any particular leader or government or policy. As Mark Twain, that greatest of American satirists and proud son of Missouri, once wrote, “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.” We may hope that our leaders and our government stand up for our ideals, and there are many times in our history when that’s occurred. But when our laws, our leaders or our government are out of alignment with our ideals, then the dissent of ordinary Americans may prove to be one of the truest expression of patriotism.

2

Anybody who quotes The Master has exquisite taste! By golly, I may just vote for him!

3

Straight up and honest: quoting his bit about Mark Twain isn’t your way of winking at people in the know, is it? Because this looks like a satirical take on partisan political debates: none of your suggested debate points are phrased in a way conducive to debating. (3 and 5 might be, I guess, although the expected answer is made clear from how they’re stated)

My apologies if I’m explaining the joke.

Daniel

4

Speaking as an All American, patriotic, flag waving lefty, I love it! Its about time we wrested this away from the slimeballs who have wiped their ass with it loathe, these many years! Sic 'em!

(Passes out copies of Woody Guthrie’s This Land Is Your Land for the sing-along…People’s Key of “C”…)

5

It was a very very very good speech, too. If you get the chance to hear it, please do.

6

I’ve no idea what you mean about the Twain quote, so I guess the answer to that is no. But I disagree about the debate issues. Number (1) is pertinent because of content from the speech itself, which you’ll see when you read or watch it. He speaks about how patriotism became something ugly to some on the left because of how some on the right used patriotism to punish dissent during the 1960s. There are those of us old enough to remember how, as Obama says, some of us even turned against the symbols themselves. It is a sensitive issue, but certainly worthy of debate. Number (2) goes directly to the issue of a worried world that has borne the brunt of a maniacal and deformed patriotism from America’s leaders. And so the question is whether they can and do discern the difference between what they’ve seen since Vietnam and what Barack Obama brings to the table. Finally, number (4) is for the younger people on the left, who have been demonized for as long as they can remember by so-called patriots on the right. Though your straight up honesty is noted and appreciated, I would also appreciate it if you did not further impede the willingness of others to debate these matters with more of these complaints that seem more about my suggestions than about patriotism per se. I welcome your criticisms of my shortcomings in the Pit, but let’s leave this thread open for a discussion of the stated issues, please. Thank you most kindly.

7

We’ll see what kind of debate you get; if you get a real debate, you’ll have my apologies. Overall this looks more IMHO, but that’s just my humble opinion.

Daniel

8

There is a good aticle in this week’s Time Magazine, peter Beinart’s “The State of Patriotism”, which you can read here:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1818195,00.html

It goes into how conservatives and liberals each define and understand patriotism.

9

Key of C, huh? That’s a racist key! It’s all white notes!

We should play in E flat.

10

A very good article that ties in nicely with the OP. I particularly like this:

Patriotism should be proud but not blind, critical yet loving. And liberals and conservatives should agree that if patriotism entails no sacrifice, if it is all faith and no works, then something has gone wrong. The American who volunteers to fight in Iraq and the American who protests the war both express a truer patriotism than the American who treats it as a distant spectacle with no claim on his talents or conscience.Obama today recapitulated the spirit expressed in that excerpt. See his mention of sacrifice in the OP.

11

Sinclair Lewis:

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.

For an entertaining read of other famous quotes regarding patriotism, check this page.

12

[Donald Duck Dunn]A. Good country key.[/Donald Duck Dunn]

13

What are your opinions of the issues, Mr. Moto? As one of the board’s most eloquent conservatives, you could contribute quite much to this discussion. Of particular interest to me is whether conservatives fear that Obama might actually take away from them their quadrennial tactic of painting the Democrat as unpatriotic — from Nixon’s flag buttons to Bush Sr’s visit to a flag factory. As you know, if he does succeed in doing so, this election could become an electoral landslide in his favor.

14

Kinda wish he didn’t feel it obligatory to take a swipe at “60’s counterculture”, but I suppose I understand that. We’re about the only people left nobody feels any need to defend.

15

Yeah, but I wouldn’t call it a swipe really. He did explain that it was noble in its conception, but that it became derailed over time. And I would agree with that.

16

Well, its just a sentimental thing, really. If I got to eat some shit to keep McBomb from being elected, got my spoon, got my grin, I’m ready.

17

Sure, if they don’t forget that was their own default position from 1933 to 1981.

18

Damn, he’s good. I think he’s right on with his take on patriotism. But I’m more than a little annoyed that he has to play the game with the symbols and the endless droning of god bless this and god bless that. He’s no dummy…he knows he has to do it to win it, but it pisses me off that he can’t be perceived as a good american without these silly gestures that have nothing to do with the man he is or the vision he has for us, especially in the wake of the disaster that resulted from the SuperPatriot Comedy Team of Bush and Cheney. It blows my mind that anyone gives a shit about the pins and prayers and flags. We know that it doesn’t matter.

19

Well, here’s the thing. I don’t think rank-and-file Democrats and Republicans differ much in their patriotism.

That said, some people out there in the fringes of the left have been rather noisy over the years - far in excess of their numbers or political influence, I’ll allow. And they have shown that patriotism is not a priority for them - indeed, some of them see the notion as counterproductive. And by being so vocal they make Democrats look bad - only because Democrats are seen as a more liberal party.

There are lots of examples of this - from Katha Pollitt not wanting to fly the flag after 9/11 to the various antics of Ward Churchill. Now, I’ll be the first to say these folks aren’t representative. Doesn’t matter - they are newsworthy and can cause an image problem.

The Republican Party doesn’t suffer a similar problem with regard to patriotism by and large, but it sure does with regard to a host of other issues, many of which are driven by a similar fringe. For instance, I don’t think the Republican Party as a whole is racist in the least, but dig deep enough and you’ll find some kook somewhere who does something stupid at a Republican event, or runs as a Republican with an awful record the party has to disavow. And this feeds a perception that the party has to fight against.

I don’t cast aspersions often on someone’s patriotism - it isn’t my style to do so willy-nilly. But I have done so, and those were times I believed a person truly wasn’t patriotic. I don’t think that charge should be totally off the table, so long as the person on the receiving end of it can answer it fairly.

As for the flag factory stuff, I hope Obama visited one and got the things wholesale - he has so many behind him nowadays that he should have received a bulk discount at least. :smiley:

20

Well, he’s going overseas, I hear, maybe a side trip to China might be worked out.