Is Bush or most Americans aware of how hated we are ??

I can’t disagree with any of this.

Which likely fuels the fire. Not only are we hated (by many), we are indifferent to their hate, which infuriates them even more.

P.J.O’Rourke makes this analogy regarding the US and the Third World at least. We are the beautiful and mature woman, and they are the geeky, socially inept teen-ager who pines for us from afar. They spend nights in feverish dreams about us; we are vaguely aware that they exist. If they can’t get our attention any other way…

Overstated, certainly, much of the time. But there is a kernel of truth there.

As far as Europe is concerned, this, too will pass. Our popularity was artificially high on 9/12; it is abnormally low now. Eventually we will return to the status quo.

Regards,
Shodan

An interesting read on the subject is Mark Hertsgaard’s book The Eagle’s Shadow: Why America Fascinates and Infuriates the World
http://www.markhertsgaard.com/Books/Eagle/

It was required reading in my Political Science class but I found it to be a good read.
Many foreigners hold contradictory views about America, most do not hate the people, but hate our government and its hypocritical foreign policies

I’m not trying to be a smartass, but what are we supposed to be jealous of?

That’s not a hypothetical (sp?) question, either, I’d really want to know.

Anyway, as many here have pointed out, we - the “Anti-American” crowd (although I can only speak for myself, of course) - have absolutely nothing against Americans. I work in the travel industry myself, I meet loads of Americans and I’ve never met one I didn’t like. Never.

But I really, truly fear for the future safety of the entire world if the GWB administration gets another four years. Nothing personal. No jealousy.

How you can “not give a rat’s ass” about what the rest of the world thinks of you is beyond me.

Osama and his crew don’t fear us because they are crazed ideologues – they’re basically nuts and wouldn’t fear us if we nuked the whole Middle East – that would just start them talking about how they’d “rise from the ashes.”

We crushed the fourth-largest army in the world like an empty beer can – I don’t think this fact was lost on most militaristic types.

Firstly I have to say that most of the people who start threads like this are quite naive and haven’t been paying close attention to the world.

I should clarify something, first. Hate is a strong word. I don’t believe that a majority of Europeans “hate” Americans. I’ve certainly never seen any polls suggesting something like that. I’ve seen some screwball polls though, that can speak towards that fact.

Most Europeans, like most people in general, are not constantly thinking about the world’s affairs. Don’t try to superimpose the internet forum community for the entire population of a continent. I spent most of my first seventeen years and several years after that in Europe (my father was in the U.S. Army, stationed in Germany when I was growing up.) I can tell you that the vast majority of people were mostly “normal” in that you don’t chat about politics, the issues about nationality and et al. don’t come up in common conversation. Obviously when the wall fell there was some increased political talk, but overall Europe, like America, is not a country where international politics is the main topic of discussion or even a very common topic of discussion.

I’d classify feelings towards America like this:

Ever since the beginning of the 20th century there has been a small yet vocal minority in Europe that truly hates the United States, even today I’d put their numbers at an absolute max of 20%. On top of this, there is a large mostly ambivalent majority that has TENDED to “look down upon” or, “slightly disdain” the United States for the vast majority of the 20th century.

1900-1940 we were overall disliked in the international community.

I’ll chart this:

1900-1914 - We are overall disliked because of Theodore Roosevelt and some of his international policies that chafed European leaders. We were close to war with Germany for example.

Also there is international distaste lingering from the Spanish-American War and our dealings with Cuba and also the Philippines.

1914-1917 - We are looked down upon because we aren’t getting involved in WWI

1918 - For a brief period we are liked because of WWI, but even during WWI Pershing takes a lot of flak because he won’t allow the Americans to be the French lapdogs over in Europe.

After the war there is general distaste over Wilson and his “idealistic” meanderings over peace. Then we don’t sign the Versailles treaty, causing more dislike.

1918-1929 - Dislike because we are “too isolationist” and because we are very unforgiving of European nations that are refusing to pay us back for the money we lent them that won their ridiculous war they started amongst themselves.

1929-1939 - Disliked because of our tariff actions during the Great Depression. Then further disdain over our inaction in response to the Nazis near the end of the 30s.

1939-1941 - Our absence from WWII is not appreciated.

1941-1950 - During this period we probably enjoy the only amount of time where in general we are “liked”.

1950-1960 - The Suez crisis sours a lot of European leaders, also some peaceniks are mad because we won’t allow the Communists to steamroll over Europe.

1960-1970 - Vietnam and our involvement in it is unpopular in most European capitals. The British in particular are cold, in large part as revenge due to our behavior during the Suez crisis.

1970-1980 - Carter is personally liked, but overall the United States is seen as badly handling things like the Iran issue, the withdraw from Vietnam, more and more Europeans began demanding a less bellicose stance on Communism and start protesting about the United States and its military presence.

France has been growing more and more cold for years prior to 1970, in large part because de Gaulle had sest France on a path of hegemony inside Europe that was calculated to weaken the American position on the continent.

1980-1990 - Pretty much anyone left of center dislikes the United States and Reagan. Peace protestors et al hate him and his “no nonsense” style when it comes to dealing with Communists.

When the USSR falls there is general harmony though, but it of course doesn’t last long.

1990-2000 - I’d say throughout 1990-2000 we probably have had at least a few short phases where in general we were “liked.”

Some European nations didn’t want to get involved in the Gulf War at all, but Bush I handled that fairly well. Somalia and Kosovo brought equal amounts of flak/praise. Some Euros were glad we were involved, some not. So probably about in the middle on the like/dislike scale.

Clinton got some flak over his initial involvement in the IRA talks, was seen as interventionary over in the UK, but eventually that turned completely around.

Clinton again took popularity hits in Europe when he bombed Baghdad.

Clinton ended his presidency on a fairly popular note over in Euroland, though.

9/11 - Popularity hit briefly. Then as soon as we start talking about going into Afghanistan we get some flak, but not that much. Iraq tilts us firmly back into the dislike category. Probably as bad as during the loan issues after WWI or the Suez crisis in the late 50s.

To answer the original question, no the average Americans are not aware. Secondly, no, the average European doesn’t “hate” America, there is a difference between dislike and hate and I wouldn’t classify their feelings as “hate.” Again though there is that 20% of so minority that probably truly does hate the United States.

Is some current bad will Bush’s fault? Yes, of course. But a lot of Europeans have disliked a lot about this country since 1900, you have to decide if you are going to let that dictate how you live your life, and I don’t think you should. We are our own country, and I am sorry that Europeans have consistently had problems with us on some level since 1900. Some of it was our fault, but no, not all of it, and I refuse to ever say that all of it was our fault. It wasn’t our fault you wouldn’t pay your loans back, it wasn’t our fault we didn’t see the need to rape Germany after WWI, it wasn’t our fault that you played little Imperialist colonizers during the Suez crisis, it wasn’t our fault you wanted to appease the Communists during Reagan.

It was our fault with the tariffs during the Depression, and maybe a few other things.

Well, two reasons…

  1. No matter what course we chart, at least part of the world is going to get their panties in a knot.

  2. It’s transitory, like the weather. Right now we’re the worst thing since the Black Death. I’m sure that within a year or two we’ll so something that will cause the rest of the world to say, “Well, OK…right now they’re not TOO bad.” Hence I find it hard to get too worked up over any current unpopularity.

You can’t please everyone, whatever any nation does on the world stage is probably going to upset another nation, somehow. And this is your reason for not “giving a rats ass” about what almost the entire world* thinks of USA’s foreign policy?

I don’t even know what so say to that, I really don’t.

(* Yes, I know severel countries supported the invasion - we are one of them and it says nothing of what the people thought.)

As Balle M said, “you guessed wrong,” in my case at least. I’ve traveled a lot, have family and friends all over the world and local friends from all over the world. I’ve read a few books in my day, also.

I’m still kind of new here so I’m not sure about that second sentence. Isn’t that kind of statement reserved for the BBQ Pit? In any event, let me offer an alternative explanation: There are people who are educated who disagree with you. It’s that simple. If you don’t believe me try reading some of the things that people on the other side read. You’ll probably find that it’s not as crazy as it seems right now.

Getting back to why some people care and some don’t. Perhaps it’s a matter of self esteem, not stupidity. The further I get from my adolescence the less I care if people like me. I accept that there will always be issues of compatibility and power that will make simple judgements such as “I like you” and “I don’t like you” much more complicated than they appear on the surface.

If I understood the OP correctly, we are not talking about self esteem issues here. We are talking about respect and trust, or lack thereof. The further I get from my adolescence, the more I care about the importance and necessity of mutual trust and cooperation.

Well, don’t say anything…I already made it quite clear I don’t care.

How the rest of the world “feels” about the US doesn’t make a damn bit of difference in my day to day life. The ppl that are hanging their heads “Oh woe is me, Europeans don’t like me” need a life. They have way too much time on their hands.

Funny thing is, see who those same Europeans look to when they get in a jam. And sure enough, we’ll help them out again. As soon as they get back on their feet, they’ll be hating us again and I still won’t give a rat’s ass.

Put me down for the “who gives a shit” vote.

Don’t like America? Quit taking our fucking foreign aid, then, if we’re such an eeeeeeeeeeeevil bully on the world stage.

1) No matter what course we chart, at least part of the world is going to get their panties in a knot.

Exactly. America is screwed no matter what we do, there will always be someone to have a fit. We may as well do what’s best for us, because NO other country out there gives two shits about America’s best interests.

Well that’s obviously false. Our economy falls apart every time yours does, since they’re so closely entwined. We’d have to be pretty damn stupid not to care about America’s interests. Mind you, that doesn’t mean it follows that we don’t get plenty annoyed with various political stances the American govt adopts.

I believe the OP is concerned about anti-American sentiment in industrial nations, as I am. Asia, Europe, Australia. Countries that don’t depend on US foreign aid. Countries whose citizens think their economy and democracy is just as good as the American system, and have no cause to be jealous of the US. Countries whom the US views and depends on as allies.

So are Americans aware that citizens of dveloped nations are starting to hate the US more and more? Do you care?

So are Americans aware that citizens of dveloped nations are starting to hate the US more and more? Do you care?

Yes we’re aware. Do I care? Nope. I can’t take any country seriously that gets pissed off at us for trying to take out terrorists.

Care to tell us which countries those would be? Most industrialized countries that are pissed off at the US right now are pissed off because of Iraq, not because of efforts to track down Al Qaeda. In fact, I think to the extent that industrialized countries are peeved with the way the US is going after Al Qaeda, they’re peeved because the US stopped putting pressure on Al Qaeda to prosecute this damn fool war. You folks really need to stop buying into your own propaganda.

Yes, and I must admit that it would be nice if we were better liked. I’m just not sure that the prize of being liked is worth the price. Some of you foreign nationals might think that our lack of concern over being disliked is a sign of clueless arrogance. Think of it this way. When it starts to rain you might worry about getting wet. After you’ve been standing in the rain for 10 minutes you stop worrying about being wet.
Stop supporting Israel: Nope, Israel has the moral high ground and believe the US should continue providing it support. When the Palestinians stop blowing up pregnant women and pizza parlours I might change my mind.

The war in Iraq is wrong: I have a variety of concerns about the reasons we went to war and the long term reprucussions but I can’t say I find anything morally wrong with taking the former government of Iraq apart.

Support the ICJ: Nope, ain’t going to happen any time soon.

Support Kyoto: Again, nope it ain’t going to happen.

Ban landmines: It isn’t in our interest to ban them right now. Maybe if we could have a landmine treaty that made exceptions for Korea or for mines designed to destroy themselves after a set period of time.

Treat every national as being equal: Realistically this just isn’t possible. Holland just isn’t as important on the world stage as England or France.

Flag waving: So we wave the flag a bit more then you guys. GET OVER IT! Nobody gets hurt or has their rights violated because Americans like to wave flags. You won’t hear me bitching about some western european nations that still have a monarchy so just get over the fact that we wave flags.

Death penalty: It isn’t as if we’re executing people for speaking out against the government or jaywalking. We execute people for murdering other human beings.

Marc

You really think that’s what it’s about, huh?

This thread is pretty insightful. Many of the sentiments echoed remind me of old geezers in the 1960’s talking about the world. It’s just wierd that 40 years of globalization later and US citizens on this board are still talking like WW2 vets.

Maybe when the dollar implodes, the stock market tanks and mortgage rates rise because foreign countries quit buying treasuries and otherwise financing the prolifigate spending in the US of A, people will start to figure out that what the rest of the world thinks and does actually matters.

How about something closer to home. US of A is trying to extract itself with honor from Iraq (heard that phrase before anyone?), and that means trying to win over the UN and our close allies that we completely alienated 15 months ago by being dictatorial self-righteous jerks. Couldn’t wait for inspections because there was an immediate threat and damnit if you aren’t with us, you’re against us. And that means the sweet rebuilding contracts after the war too, Haliburton all the way.

That said, in my experience of almost 20 years in Asia, almost no one hates Americans on a personal level. There are plenty that dislike what we do as a country.

astorian

Simply not true. People were falling over their feet offering support, both law enforcement and military, as long as the fight was against Al Qeda. People were arrested, bank accounts were frozen, plenty of cooperation. There’s still plenty of French and German troops in Afghanistan, in case anyone wondered.

Well, if you know it, why bring it up ?

Frankly, the machinations before the Iraq war left a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouths. It sure looked like an attempt to use the momentum and the sympathy to get another war rolling. If it wasn’t a blatant attempt at using well-earned sympathy to get your way, it sure looked like it. Plus, of course, the Guantanamo thing. That looked and still looks like an attempt to finesse some rather basic obligations - legal and moral ones.

I don’t think Americans are more hated or disliked in Europe than any number of other nationalities you care to mention. On a personal level, French, Germans, Finns, Italians, Swedes and - I’m sure - Danes - all are the butts of some rather trite and clicheed jokes. So are Americans.

Of course, one of the subjects that tend to be debated where nationalities meet is international politics and seeing as the current US administration has been behind some unpopular politics, some discussion is going to be along those lines. Just as the French were ribbed for the Rainbow Warrior and the nuclear tests, the Brits for their mad cows, the Swedes for - ehm - being Swedish, I guess - and the Germans for you-know-who, Americans are going to be taking a bit of incoming for the acts of their administration. Some jerks will overdo it. Happens.

Incidentally, thanks to Gorsnak for putting the Machiavelli quote in its proper context. The Prince suffers from being more quoted than read.