So much for the “Shining City on a Hill”. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by yojimbo
Aww, come on. Every nation has its chauvinists. This is actually a French word and not for nothing. The French, like the Dutch - I admit that - are much more chauvinistic than Americans.
And in mine. And I seem to remember the German saying: “Alles besser in Deutschland.”
The point is: *Every * country has nationalistic/patriotic people.
If Americans want to complain about their politics, fine. If you’re dissatisfied how your country’s politicians handle the American support - or lack of it - vote for someone else in your country.
People from other nations are all too pleased to kick the big one when he’s down. Cut it out.
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I agree with Jojimbo.
Do not underestimate how many people are discussing the USA right now in coffee shops, living rooms and pubs around the world. The fact that some of you dont care is irrelevant. We care what you are up to because it affects all of us.
It is not your citizens, your flag, your terrorist attack, your accents, your $, your “culture”, or your fast food, which get people pissed.
ITS YOUR ATTITUDE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, which is re-inforced by the ignorant, arrogant, inflated posts in this and many other threads.
See if you can figure out whether statements like those from Flickster,Carmichael & Balle_M generate a positive attitude ( which may help you next time you need friends ) or enforce a negative view ( which eventually WILL lead to more terrorists killing you). But hey, you dont care because like Isreal (sic), you have the moral high ground ( they blow people up, we only blow them up coz thats what they did to us ).
Oh and I’m not exagerating :Quote from aruvqan
Charter Member on "Torture, Coercion, The Dark Art of Interrogation " thread:
" Do the exact same things they did to our service personnel to theirs. When they whine, tell them they did it to us, we do it to them. Not that it would actualy stop them from whining about things, but maybe then the rest of the world and certain groups of americans would stop whining about us. "
Does anyone else think this statement is almost stupifying in its naivity? I can only hope that a 15 yearold wrote it.
I have often noticed that complex arguments are boiled down to such a black and white statement. This juvenile approach does not work. It really does make you look stupid.
EG (paraphrased ):
‘but its not torture, its abuse’
‘if you aint with us, youre against us’
‘it doesnt affect my daily life, so i just dont care’
‘I won’t set foot in France, Germany or Spain’ !! - WTF???
‘i know that everyone in Gitmo is really, really evil’
‘i’d like to holiday in Gitmo !!’
‘we are acting as independant peace brokers, (whilst openly supporting one side)’
I’d better stop, but you get my drift.
The only way to stop the rot here, is to elect someone other than Bush. If he wins, millions of people will start to think that the average American is not only a supporter of war and torture, but aprove of Bush’s tactless, immature and arrogant handling of (very) delicate world events.
PLEASE, PLEASE dont elect him again. I really fear what kind of message you will be giving out. Now you know what he and his advisers are like. If you re-elect him, god help all of us.
Rant over/
Thank god there are posts like those from Gyrate, Eluci and Apos help to put a rational perspective on the situation.
Sin
If we were talking a life for a life - then you are correct. However, a life saved in exchange for some humiliation - then the letter may have a point worth considering. Although to this date, there has been no evidence provided that any usable information was ever garnered in response to the humiliation of the prisoners.
and I never said they didn’t. I just said from my POV it seems to be WAY stronger in the US. That’s not necessiarily a bad thing by the way but it does lead to strong feelings from them and stronger negative feelings from some of the world.
[/quote]
Oh I do. I also will complain about US foreign policy as it involves everyone. If this BS work has made the world a more radicalised dangerous place then as a citizen of the world I want my say. Also if this becomes a UN operation Irish troops could well be on the streets in Iraq so again I want my say.
When the big guy is fucking up badly they deserve the odd kick.
Indeed: professional interrogators have long established that torture and humiliation is more likely to elicit information: the wrong sort of information. It’s a great way of making prisoners desperate to tell you anything they know you want to hear, regardless of what the truth is.
I’d like to know more about what MI wanted to hear. If these people were being beaten, stripped, dog-bitten, and so on all in an attempt to make them confess to the existence of stockpiles of WMDs, that’d look pretty darn bad: especially because the interrogators would knowingly be using a method that would get people to confess to it whether it was true or not. Perhaps Cheny’s continued certainty that there are still WMDs out there in large quantities is based on such completely unreliable “confessions.”
The big one isn’t “down.” When the big one was down (9/11) everyone rushed to console us and stand by us.
The big one just got caught screwing the pooch in a back closet. That’s a very different situation.
Too many posts talk of countries hating the US like as its a “you either hate us or you don’t”. Or the overly simple “they have always hated us”.
Before Bush foreigners and countries did hate the US of course... the issue should be are Americans aware of HOW MUCH MORE hatred has risen ? How much more respect and admiration for the US has declined ? How many are now neutral at best when the US is the issue.
Yes, 97% of americans don't travel or care too much. Individual americans are rarely picked on as targets for anti-americanism... but certainly the boundaries between "Hate Bush" and "Hate America" and eventually "Hate Americans" is being blurred. With time it might get worse. If Bush gets reelected then Americans I feel become accomplices in creating this hate, dislike and neutrality. Expect less tolerance abroad.
Finally the US has defended ideals that I feel are worthy and positive for the world. The UN itself is a US "product". The more the US gets demoralized, the more the cherished ideals the US likes to defend will lose ground. The world has much to gain with a strong US leadership and guidance... the same way the US has much to gain by not closing itself.
Even if the regular Joe shuck doesn’t care… our debate here usually takes a more profound and analytical view than a commoner.
The majority of photos I have seen so far (and I’ll admit I haven’t been actively searching for them) depict nudity and sexual humiliation. The other with the hooded prisoner standing with the wires attached to his hands and I’ve heard of one other with a guard dog near a prisoner. I have not seen any pics of prisoners being beaten or dog-bitten or otherwise physically abused. I’m not saying what happened was justified, but it certainly was not in the same vain as what happened in Saddam’s torture chambers.
Is it feasible, even remotely, that the US will one day not be the dominant global power?
Important question?
As I said earlier, the percentage of Europeans that truly hate America has not changed significantly since the 1960s or so, I’d gauge it at around 15-20%. What is really at question is the percentage of Europeans that dislike America.
People talking about how Europeans are going to boycott America and cut us off economically do not understand economics. I have a master’s in economics, no country in the current system can cut off the world’s largest economy and not suffer horrible consequences in their own system. If the U.S. collapsed economically it would be like a tidal wave ripping through the world’s economic systems.
Look at the effect a much smaller economy, Japan’s, had on the world when it’s bubble “burst” and that still wasn’t a full scale collapse.
So talk about boycotting the U.S. of A and crushing us with economic might is mostly just bullheaded ignorance.
In the appropriate system of world affairs, each country is out for what is best for that country. In such a system what individual people “feel” about the matter is irrelevant. The only time foreign “feelings” matter is in the realpolitik sense of how we can use those feelings to our advantage.
Well, I’m not going to wade through all the various rants in this tread, just going to answer the question, "Is Bush or most Americans aware of how hated we are??’
I’d say its a pretty good bet that Bush and his administration are perfectly aware that there is a lot of negative feelings about America out there in ‘The World’. I’d also say that most American’s are aware of this fact too, as its nothing really new…its been off and on for decades, like a large background hiss in our ears. When you constantly rant about something, even if there is really no good reason for it, eventually people simply tune you out.
I DO travel a lot outside of the US, and I have a lot of friends in other countries, especially Britan and India. I’ve also traveled fairly extensively throughout Europe and in the far east as well. I’ve been hearing anti-America feelings for a long time. Sometimes its accurate, most times its completely off the wall. After a while, I just tune it out…thats a very human response. We all do this.
Should we worry about it, as a nation? I doubt it. We should certainly not completely ignore it (from a NATIONAL perspective, i.e. the Administration should certainly take note at the least), but nations need to do what they think is best for them, and sometimes this makes them unpopular. Its not a popularity contest. America, already controversial on the popularity scale, is basically in a lose or lose bigger scenerio as far as world opinion goes, unless we don’t want to act like a soveriegn nation…and a major Superpower to boot.
Is America unusual in this attitude? Hell no. Show me some other nation that DOESN’T feel this way. Turn it around a bit. Does France know or care how ‘hated’ they are by the US and elsewhere (well, they probably ‘know’ but I’d love someone to show me they care…or that they SHOULD care)? Will it or SHOULD it change their national policy at all? Should President Chirac not be re-elected because many in the US (and elsewhere) can’t stand the man?? Or should the French decide for themselves whats best for their country and re-elect him or NOT re-elect him based on that, and not on how popular (or unpopular) he is with ‘The World’?
To address the ‘ugly American’ bit briefly. Does it happen? Sure it does. ‘American’s’ are arrogant and self rightous, and a host of other things as well. ‘We’ firmly believe that they are ‘better’ than the rest of the world, that our government is the ultimate, that our systems are superior, etc etc, blah blah blah. Ironically, this same attitude could easily be applied to the myriad OTHER countries citizens I’ve visited. The emphasis might be different, and maybe other things would be high on thier list, but the nation superiority thing persists. Ever been to Japan? To Britan? To France? To South Korea? To India? I’ve met people just as ugly as the ugliest American in all of those places, just as smug in their superiority. So, I have to ask myself…why should the US be any different? We, like they, are made up of a diverse group of citizens (in our case, its a VERY diverse group, with many different ‘races’, cultures and religions) who can’t basically agree on anything, and run the gamit of attitudes and beliefs.
On the Bush thing. I’ve been hearing rants about Bush outside of America (and inside too) since the man was elected. Before he did a single thing I was seeing/hearing anti-Bush and even anti-American rants. If you rant and rave about something continuously long enough, reguardless of the issue, eventually when you actually have a point, you will find that many are tuning you out. Many people in the US are tuning out or at least heavily filtering the anti-Bush ranting coming in from outside the US for this reason. Its nothing new, they’ve heard it over and over throughout his presidency (and frankly been hearing anti-American sentiments as well for a long time), and after a while it simply loses its meaning. Which is a shame really, as especially recently there is good cause (IMO) TO rant about him. Again though, this is a very human response IMO.
American’s will elect Bush or toss him out based on our internal assessment of his performance in the job to date. Hows the economy doing? How has Bush done as far as making the country secure after 9/11? What exactly has Bush gotten us into with the Iraqi invasion, and how are things going there?
Sure, some or even many people will factor in the perception of him in other nations (and rightly so), but the main issues will revolve around how WE feel about him in the job, not how citizens of Europe or Asia feel about him. Again, turn it around…do OTHER countries citizens base their decision for their government on the opinion of ‘The World’, or do they base it on their own internal assessment of their governments performance? Answered honestly, they base it on their own assessment and at most factor in ‘The Worlds’ opinion in some minor way.
-XT
Gee are those the official figures? :rolleyes:
I just spent the past several months working in Europe and I was surprised by a couple of things: The United States is not the center of their universe. No one (at least who I met) is sitting around thinking about how much they “hate” the US. There were no flag burnings or boycotts in front of McDonalds. No one threw eggs at me or yelled “Yankee go home!!” in their native tongue (at least I don’t think so). People did not get into raging debates over foreign policy with me.
That’s a point I was trying to make earlier. Europeans talk about politics and global affairs just about as much as Americans do in casual conversation, not at all. They may vote more than us but they aren’t intrinsically “more political.”
You got a cite?
OK, just how close to Saddam’s torture chambers are you willing that we should go?
I simply don’t understand such a point of view. The people being _______________ (insert a term of your choice) by the interrogators(?) were most likely not a part of Saddam’s apparatus and according to early reports at least, were mostly random Iraqis gathered up in generalized sweeps.
Is it your claim that we should have gathered up the people of the town of Dachau, for example, and starved and beaten them until they were just skin and bones?
Its more important what you stand for than who you stand with. Life isn’t a popularity contest. People have always hated America, and then as now, it always a lot more about them than it does about us.
No, but I can tell you where to look.
Google up polls conducted in Germany and France concerning 9/11.
The percentage of the people that answered those polls like this, “The United States performed 9/11 on itself, for geopolitical purposes,” or the people that answered, “The United States deserved 9/11” will give you a good figure as to the percentage of people that hates the United States.
Whenever you see one of these polls you always get somewhere from 7-20% of the respondents voting for the most anti-American option.
I classify them as the “haters.”
Really?
Interesting.
Because, mr bandit, you once started a post called Why, O France, hast thou backstabbed thy brother?.
I’m also trying to match the above statement with the following post of yours about France:
A double standard? Or is this a case of ‘do as I say, not as I do’?
Well today’s news kind of puts an exclamation point on my view that our abuse does not equal (or ever will) their’s. Humiliation does not equal beheading. How quick do you think we’ll be hearing their apologies.
The sooner we lay waste to these assholes and get the Hell out, the better.