Is calling somebody a troll an insult? Or not?

[crowmanyclouds]

@get_lives

{…} I think the line is drawn in the wrong place here, though…and I think it actually ends up discouraging discussion, in most cases. {…}

I play around on a board that doesn’t have a prohibition on calling folks trolls. Many discussions go like this,
A: “I think X”
B: “Well, I think you’re wrong about X, what about 1,2,3”
A: “TROLL!”

It stops actual discussion dead in it’s tracks. There are a bunch of Poster B’s on that board, their 1,2,3’s rarely get addressed in those threads. Why actually address the weak points of your argument if you can just summarily dismiss the poster pointing them out.

CMC fnord!

[jimbuff314]

@get_lives

[…] There are some members I’d have banned years ago. Not because they NEVER post anything productive, but because the ratio of signal to noise is just too unfavorable, and scares off potential members, or current members from a particular thread or even whole subject.

I say all this as a long-time moderator of my own board, who has to decide where this line is pretty often.

[Bolding, italicizing added]

The moderators around here are probably newbies compared to your long-time experience. But I don’t see how you can reasonably expect us to make that comparison or even judge the benefit your years of experience might have to offer unless you get a lot more specific about the first sentence which I quoted and conveniently highlighted for you. It’s the only way to be sure.

[get_lives]

@crowmanyclouds

I play around on a board that doesn’t have a prohibition on calling folks trolls. Many discussions go like this,
A: “I think X”
B: “Well, I think you’re wrong about X, what about 1,2,3”
A: “TROLL!”

It stops actual discussion dead in it’s tracks. There are a bunch of Poster B’s on that board, their 1,2,3’s rarely get addressed in those threads. Why actually address the weak points of your argument if you can just summarily dismiss the poster pointing them out.

CMC fnord!

And yet, you haven’t left that board. Shocking, eh?

I ALSO participate in such a board. The true trolls get laughed at, mocked, and sometimes outright ignored. They are more handled by the group than the mods, who take a light hand there. Granted, the group is subject to its own limitations, so there’s that. I think consensus rule is better, though, ultimately. Not that that’s exactly what they have, but it’s definitely more encouraging of discussion than more autocratic methods. And encouraging discussion is the ultimate point, no?

[get_lives]

@jimbuff314

[Bolding, italicizing added]

The moderators around here are probably newbies compared to your long-time experience. But I don’t see how you can reasonably expect us to make that comparison or even judge the benefit your years of experience might have to offer unless you get a lot more specific about the first sentence which I quoted and conveniently highlighted for you. It’s the only way to be sure.

If you have a problem with me, take it to the Pit. Trying to bait me into breaking rules in ATMB is not classy, dude, IMHO.

[simster]

@Lamar_Mundane

Yeah, but you just today gave me a pre-warning for what was clearly not an insult. Trolling is a clearly defined word in these days and it should be allowed to be used in normal conversation. What other word(s) are we supposed to use in reference to that behavior?

Yeah - I’m still trying to understand how referencing a thread - that is in the pit where trolling is allowed - as trolling, comes in as an insult.

Seems to be recognizing the behavior for what it is - and since trolling is allowed in the PIT, how else would one get a discussion going about when to end such a thing?

[FXMastermind]

02-24-2009, 11:23 AM
Ed Zotti
Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit: read this before posting

No trolling

By trolling, we mean posting of inflammatory comments solely to get a rise out of people. If we feel your primary goal as a poster is to make people mad, you’ll quickly find yourself on the road to banning. On the flip side, the fact that a poster consistently makes you mad doesn’t automatically make them a troll.

[jimbuff314]

@get_lives

If you have a problem with me, take it to the Pit. Trying to bait me into breaking rules in ATMB is not classy, dude, IMHO.

There was no rule-breaking which I advocated. Naming posters here who, in a paraphrase of your words, have a sufficiently high noise-to-signal ratio to get banned on your board would just be you expressing your opinion. If you’re going to make such a statement here in ATMB, be prepared to be asked to back it up.

[GIGObuster]

I think FXmastermind is missing the point, it is clear that based on this thread that most of the management and most posters can be in agreement of what a poster does, but even if we all know what is going on, the issue is more relaxed in the pit.

So even if it is common knowledge what is going on and the mods already rendered their opinions in the pitand elsewhere IMHO a poster calling attention to it by telling the management to clamp down a poster like Lamar Mundane is just turning this thread as a perfect example of the Streisand effect.

I would recommend that if there is one exception to the rule that on the BBQ PIT we can not discuss issues like this regarding board rules that there should be one exception for discussing rulings in the pit regarding trolling only.

[FXMastermind]

@simster

Yeah - I’m still trying to understand how referencing a thread - that is in the pit where trolling is allowed

I’m still confused about the entire trolling issue. It clearly states no trolling is allowed, anywhere on the forum. The Pit even calls special attention to the issue. Trolling is clearly spelled out, and it is against the rules.

But, as we saw when I asked about it before, “While trolling is against the rules, as I said in the Pit thread we do accept a certain degree of trolling in that forum.” - source

But the issue itt isn’t even about that, it’s about accusing somebody of trolling, or in essence labeling them as “posting as a troll”, which is clearly an insult, and that matter was settled, it’s an insult (no matter how you do it) in this sub forum.

Which brings up the other issue, which was also settled itt

Posting in a manner to paint another member as a troll is an insult, no matter how clever you are about it. So complaining about somebody trolling, in this sub forum, it seems it is flat out against the rules.

Which is obvious if you read the rules here. From the second post in the FAQ - Guidelines and Etiquette on the SDMB thread here.

Don’t call someone a troll except in the Pit

Trolling - that is, posting inflammatory remarks in order to provoke an angry response - is against our rules. Calling someone a troll is an insult, and thus also against our rules except in the Pit. If you see what you consider trolling, report it privately, either by using the “Report Post” feature (the triangle at right in the bar above each post) or sending a private message to a mod.

We enforce the rule against accusations of trollery stringently - more so than for garden-variety insults. Here’s our reasoning:

1. Our rule of thumb for insults is that you can disparage the post but not the poster. For example, you can say a post is foolish but, except in the Pit, you can’t call someone a fool.

2. The prohibition against accusations of trollery is a special case of this rule. Stubborn defenders of unpopular positions are often denounced as trolls, in many cases unfairly. They’re not primarily trying to provoke, they’re just being obstinate. This isn’t against our rules. Stating or implying that such people are trolls is an attempt to cut them out of the discussion. We’re trying to promote debate, not suppress it. Accordingly, we interpret the no-insults rule broadly when it comes to trolling - even an indirect accusation that someone is a troll is likely to earn you a rebuke from a moderator. As indicated above, if you see an example of what you consider trolling, report it privately or take it to the Pit.

3. To be clear, any use of the word “troll,” “trolling” and derivatives in connection with a specific poster is likely to come under scrutiny. That said, we don’t forbid all mention of the concept of trolling. For example, a comment such as “I don’t think you really believe what you’re saying - you’re just trying to get everyone mad” isn’t an insult in our book and doesn’t violate our rule. However, a discussion along these lines can easily degenerate into name calling. We’ll take appropriate steps if we think a thread is headed in that direction.

4. General discussion of the rule about trolling is permitted in the About This Message Board forum; accusations of trolling are not. Do not attempt to use a general discussion to insinuate that so-and-so is a troll. If you believe the rule against trolling is being flouted, you’ve gotten no satisfaction via private channels, and you wish to make your case in ATMB, be aware that you face a high burden of proof. The fact that someone persistently makes arguments you consider silly or obnoxious doesn’t in itself constitute trollery, and your assertion to the contrary is likely to earn you a rebuke.

5. Some users have personal agendas they post about obsessively. This isn’t trolling, but it can get out of hand. We reserve the right to tell such people to dial back or stop posting on a particular subject. However, we don’t feel obliged to do so. It’s OK to call attention to an obsessive poster on ATMB, but we’ll be the judge of whether action is warranted.

Which you might think would sort of end this discussion.

[simster]

You keep missing one subtle point - the thread was called trollery - and while, you;ve been called a troll (in the pit, and in that thread) - and you have engaged in behaviour that some consider as such - this discussion started off about the thread itself.

The rule you keep quoting is meant to prevent flame wars in the threads themselves - it should not be meant to prevent sane/civil discussion about merits of some long running threads that may/may not be getting somewhere - such as the one you are most concerned about.

[RaftPeople]

@GIGObuster

I think FXmastermind is missing the point, it is clear that based on this thread that most of the management and most posters can be in agreement of what a poster does, but even if we all know what is going on, the issue is more relaxed in the pit.

What is happening with the climate has many unresolved questions, and most of what FX posts is data pulled from official climate sites and discussion about why that counters previous predictions.

What exactly is the problem with that?

[GIGObuster]

@RaftPeople

What is happening with the climate has many unresolved questions, and most of what FX posts is data pulled from official climate sites and discussion about why that counters previous predictions.

What exactly is the problem with that?

That that is not the issue here, check the links offered, even management knows what is going on, but we can not say it elsewhere outside the Pit.

[DingoelGringo]

@FXMastermind

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7697084&postcount=2

In my perception, calling somebody a troll is a grave insult on the internets. Especially on a board that bans people for trolling.

But it seems unclear if it’s considered an insult in this sub form, About This Message Board.

So is it an insult or not?

Maybe someone could define it for me. It obviously means something different on this board than other places. To me it means trying to insert one’s advertisement onto the forum. I have been banned for Multiple trolling, and i have no advertising of any kind and have no idea what it means here.

[get_lives]

@jimbuff314

There was no rule-breaking which I advocated. Naming posters here who, in a paraphrase of your words, have a sufficiently high noise-to-signal ratio to get banned on your board would just be you expressing your opinion. If you’re going to make such a statement here in ATMB, be prepared to be asked to back it up.

If you have a problem with me, I already invited you to take it to the Pit.

[RaftPeople]

@GIGObuster

That that is not the issue here, check the links offered, even management knows what is going on, but we can not say it elsewhere outside the Pit.

It’s precisely the issue. I’ve read the thread, he posts mostly facts and data from official sites plus arguments about why they counter previous predictions.

Please provide an argument about why that should be shut down.

[GIGObuster]

@RaftPeople

It’s precisely the issue. I’ve read the thread, he posts mostly facts and data from official sites plus arguments about why they counter previous predictions.

Please provide an argument about why that should be shut down.

:rolleyes:

The quote you posted from me conveniently omitted the link I made in post #68, if you had bothered to check it you would see that the moderator advises the poster in Great Debates that it is not just in the pit where the poster is ignoring that others already showed that he is wrong by ignoring the overall data.

The moderator advised the poster that to get snide remarks while ignoring the information the actions do point to the poster as running into trouble with the rules.

But that was pointed out only to show how mods see the poster, it would be an argument to shut down the thread but it is clear that the administration is ok on letting it continue, and the issue now is that you are ignoring that I did already agree because it is clear that the record shows how management and many others sees the poster, just as I see him in the pit, and that is enough for me.

The funny thing is that by pressing as he is doing on his last post here it is like Barbara Streisand demanding that no one sees her house, the effect is the opposite.

[Fenris]

–Never mind–

[Heffalump_and_Roo]

@get_lives

I ALSO participate in such a board. The true trolls get laughed at, mocked, and sometimes outright ignored. They are more handled by the group than the mods, who take a light hand there. Granted, the group is subject to its own limitations, so there’s that. I think consensus rule is better, though, ultimately. Not that that’s exactly what they have, but it’s definitely more encouraging of discussion than more autocratic methods. And encouraging discussion is the ultimate point, no?

In my experience, on any message board where people are mocked and then modded by the same people, the range of discussion is very stilted and very limited in range because the mods’ or owners’ opinions become the only valid ones within a very limited range. If you’ve found an exception, I’d love to hear about it. IME, having been on a lot of message boards, I’ve never seen an exception.

I think that the very act of having a few people decide who is to be mocked and then modded leads to the stifling of discussion. That’s the reason that I support the idea here that people don’t get mocked in the Pit for the same opinion that they’re modded on in ATMB. Many times, the people mocking are just disagreeing with an idea they don’t like or a behavior they don’t like. If they can’t point out the behavior in any specificity in ATMB, they can’t just attempt to oust someone because of an idea they don’t like.

The SDMB rule on that leads to more diverse and interesting discussions, IMO.

[FXMastermind]

@Heffalump_and_Roo

In my experience, on any message board where people are mocked and then modded by the same people, the range of discussion is very stilted and very limited in range because the mods’ or owners’ opinions become the only valid ones within a very limited range. If you’ve found an exception, I’d love to hear about it. IME, having been on a lot of message boards, I’ve never seen an exception.

And you probably never will.

[Grotonian]

"You know what an eggcorn is, but persist with the stupidity of your OP shtik.

Moving this to another forum. Pretty close to trolling." emphasis mine

samclem, moderator

I got the above notice last month. Can I tell someone they’re “pretty close to trolling”? How about that they’re “pretty close to being a cocksucker”? Just asking because I want to understand the rules and I assume if the mods can say it, I can say it. But maybe there are two sets of rules. I’d just like to know.