Is Chicken Meat?

[stoneys44]

I don’t know if this question has been posted in the past, so I am going to ask it.

I am Catholic, and with this being the Lenten Season, I wanted to know if anyone knows the correct rules for not eating meat on Friday’s.

I know fish(seafood) is alright to eat, but I was wondering about chicken and to a lesser extent pork. Meaning that only red meat is to not be eaten on Friday’s during Lent or any meat other than fish(seafood) is not allowed.

I guess I am just looking for a loophole to have something other than fish for dinner tonight.

Thanks!!

[Mangetout]

I have a feeling that rabbit fetuses are not classified as meat by (some) religious folks who go for the whole fish on Friday thing… enjoy.

If you want something ‘meaty’, but still fish, how about Swordfish or Tuna steaks?

[Lsura]

I had to look this up last week.
Basically, fowl is considered meat, but eggs are not. I’ve been trying to locate my cite again, but I haven’t yet found it.

[Mangetout]

Hmmm, what about vegeatarian meat substitutes?

[everton]

You might find this article an interesting read, stoneys44 (and Lsura):

What is the Church’s official position concerning penance and abstinence from meat during Lent?

Abstinence forbids the use of meat, but not of eggs, milk products or condiments made of animal fat.
…

The Code of Canon Law and our bishops remind us of other works and means of doing penance: prayer, acts of self-denial, almsgiving and works of personal charity. Attending Mass daily or several times a week, praying the rosary, making the way of the cross, attending the parish evening prayer service, teaching the illiterate to read, reading to the blind, helping at a soup kitchen, visiting the sick and shut-ins and giving an overworked mother a break by baby-sitting—all of these can be even more meaningful and demanding than simply abstaining from meat on Friday.

Personally I haven’t stuck to the “no meat on Friday” rule for several years, but since I love fish it was never much of an imposition even when I was a kid. You could always use Lent as an excuse to experiment with some vegetarian recipes – you might be surprised how nice thay can be.

But the most important thing is to remember why you’re modifying your behaviour during a religious season. It’s not a matter of having some stupid rule to follow because you’ll burn in Hell if you don’t, it’s to help you concentrate the mind on the world outside yourself for a little while, and there are many ways you can do that.

[Fear_Itself]

I went to public schools in the 60’s and they always served fish sticks on Friday, out of deference to the Catholic kids.

[bobk2]

Why isn’t fish a meat? It’s the flesh of an animal…they have many of the characteristics and organs that other ‘meat’ animals do (bones, brains, etc.) …they even have some circulatory system (don’t they?)

[Captain_Amazing]

You could cheat…have Barnicle Goose

[Apex_Rogers]

*Originally posted by bobk2 *
**Why isn’t fish a meat? It’s the flesh of an animal…they have many of the characteristics and organs that other ‘meat’ animals do (bones, brains, etc.) …they even have some circulatory system (don’t they?) **

Yes they do have a circulatory system, and IIRC it’s a single loop system (meaning blood passes through the gills and is oxygenated, goes forward to the head, turns around in the loop, goes down to the heart, goes to the tail, turns around and returns to the gills to be reoxygenated. This is what I vaguely recall from my Bio class last year (wish I had the book with me to verify). Anyways, yes I’ve alos wondered why people don’t consider fish to be meat. What is the definition for meat then? Land-fairing animal flesh? Are sea-fairing creatures not considered meat? But then what about whales and other sea mammals? I’m confused…

[everton]

It depends which people you’re talking about and why they avoid cartain kinds of food. Vegans and vegetarians who avoid meat for ethical reasons include fish in the definition of things to avoid. Jewish people follow descriptions of flesh included/excluded according to the Book of Leviticus and Christian abstinence rules are based on modified interpretation of the same rules.

A line has to be drawn somewhere. Leviticus doesn’t mention blood circulatory methods, it uses hoof configuration, cud-chewing and external attributes in the appearance of fish. Needless to say it was written before modern taxonomic principles decided that whales and dolphins were mammals rather than fish (it also counts bats as “fowl” BTW), but since they don’t have scales they don’t seem to count as edible fish according to Leviticus.

[everton]

Here’s an excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopaedia (my emphasis):

Throughout the Latin Church the law of abstinence prohibits all responsible subjects from indulging in meat diet on duly appointed days. Meat diet comprises the flesh, blood, or marrow of such animals and birds as constitute flesh meat according to the appreciation of intelligent and law-abiding Christians. For this reason the use of fish, vegetables, mollusks, crabs, turtles, frogs, and such-like cold-blooded creatures is not at variance with the law of abstinence. Amphibians are relegated to the category whereunto they bear most striking resemblance. This classification can scarcely preclude all doubt regarding viands prohibited by the law of abstinence. Local usage, together with the practice of intelligent and conscientious Christians, generally holds a key for the solution of mooted points in such matters, otherwise the decision rests with ecclesiastical authority.

[SteverinoAlaReno]

No, chicken’s not meat. If you beat your chicken, it would probably die.
Sorry…I couldn’t resist that

[Nametag]

For this reason the use of fish, vegetables, mollusks, crabs, turtles, frogs, and such-like cold-blooded creatures is not at variance with the law of abstinence.

Yeah, there’s something about wolfing down a two-pound Maine lobster that just screams “abstinence.”

[tomndebb]

As everton has cited, the ancient tradition of the church lined up pretty closely with what we now identify as warm-blooded animals. Thus, all mammals and birds are under the rule of abstinence.

Throughout history, different regional churches have made different rules, whereby turtles or frogs might come under the rule of abstinence, but the general church-wide rule has always followed the warm-blooded/cold-blooded division (even though that idea as a scientific category was not elaborated until many years later).

I am not sure where the notion of excluding chicken from the rules of abstinence arose, but it is a pretty widespread belief, for some reason (usually among non-Catholics, but obviously some Catholics have heard the claim).
Pork, lamb/mutton, rabbit, and other less common meats have always been included among the meat foods, as the phrase is “flesh meat,” not “red meat.”

[astorian]

This year, the point is moot, but when I was a kid in New York, any time St. Patrick’s Day fell on a Friday, you could count on Cardinal Cooke or Archbishop Mugavero to put out word that, for this day only, it was okay to eat corned beef!

[everton]

*Originally posted by Nametag *
**Yeah, there’s something about wolfing down a two-pound Maine lobster that just screams “abstinence.” **

Fasting and abstinence are two different things, so a two-pound lobster might be against the rules too depending on the time of day you ate it. From the Catholic Encyclopaedia again (my emphasis and snipping):

In the United States of America all the days of Lent; the Fridays of Advent (generally); the Ember Days; the vigils of Christmas and Pentecost, as well as those (14 Aug.) of the Assumption; (31 Oct.) of All Saints, are now fasting days. …Fasting essentially consists in eating but one full meal in twenty-four hours and that about midday. …The quantity of food allowed at this meal has never been made the subject of positive legislation. Whosoever therefore eats a hearty or sumptuous meal in order to bear the burden of fasting satisfies the obligation of fasting. Any excess during the meal mitigates against the virtue of temperance, without jeopardizing the obligation or fasting.
…
Besides a complete meal, the Church now permits a collation usually taken in the evening. …about eight ounces of food are permitted at the collation…

Oh, since I’m here, is there a tradition of eating hot cross buns on Good Friday in the USA?

[moriah]

Please remember that when you quote from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, you are quoting from the 1917 edition. Laws change. Things change. People change. The stock market fluctuates wildly from day to day…

Where was I? Oh yeah, since Vatican Council II (1962) and the the new Code of Canon Law (1983) we now have today’s official stand:

Definition of Abstinence Not eating the meat (muscle, and organs) of animals (warm-blooded and birds). As mentioned, it has nothing to do with red meat, thus chicken and pork are considered meat as much as beef and lamb. Note, too, since organs are prohibited, no sausage or hot dogs or other encased grindings.

Cold blooded creatures (frogs, alligator, mollusks) and fish are not meat.

Also, diary byproducts are not considered meat. You can drink milk, and eat cheese, ice cream, yogurt, etc… Also, animal fat is not considered meat, so go ahead and use the pasta sauce with meat drippings in it.

Why abstinence from meat? I haven’t a friggin’ clue and I’m waiting for a historian to give me a credible citation for its origin rather than “Isn’t is because…?”

When abstinence?
On the Fridays of Lent. And also Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, which are also Days of Fasting.

It used to be every Friday of the year, which is why Catholics got the rep for eating fish every Friday. However, even though all Fridays are still technically penitential days (because Friday is the day Christ was crucified), only the aforementioned Lenten days have the officially sanctioned discipline of abstinence.
What if you eat meat on an abstinence day? Do you have to go to confession, will you go to hell, can you get dispensation to eat corned beef on a St. Patty’s party that falls on a Friday?

There is no canonical censure applied to breaking this ‘rule.’ This is a church-made and human-made law – not a law of God. Therefore, one does not have to confess it, one will not go to hell, and one can dispense themselves from the rule to eat corned beef on a Friday. The rule of thumb is that if you fail to keep the discipline one day, then try to keep it on another day of your choice.

To reform one’s life, however, is a divine Law. Therefore, it is the complete failure to attempt to grow in holiness through spiritual discipline (abstinence, fast, confession, prayer, charity) that is a true evil, and therefore the subject of sin.

Peace.

Catholic Theology 101

[antechinus]

Goanna is cold-blooded and tastes like chicken. mmmm

[Dogface]

It should be noted that, in Christianity, the West and the East developed different rules and principles, even before Rome and the East parted ways. The East’s rule was (and still is), that “flesh” is the flesh of any animal at all, with or without a spine. Thus, the Orthodox Lent prohibition extends to invertebrates, although they are allowed on Saturday and Sunday.

As to why this particular prohibition, there is some opinion that this is to hearken back to the “diet of Eden”, based on the principle that in Eden, no animals were eaten before the Fall, but that this was allowed after the Fall as a concession to human frailty.

For those who might ask, the Eastern tradition also prohibits all other animal-based products during Lent (and on Wednesday and Friday). Why Wednesday and Friday? Because they aren’t Tuesday and Thursday! Yes, I am not kidding you. If one looks at the Didache (perhaps the oldest collection of “canons” available), one sees that this is essentially the reason given. At least some Jews in the Levant were prone to fasting on Tuesday and Thursday. The Didache seems to have been written when the Jews were conducting anti-Nazarene/Christian purges (some early Christians still attended Synagogue, much to the displeasure of more traditional Jewish authorities), so the Church began to distance itself more explicitly from Jewish ritual practices.

[Dogface]

Addendum: Supposedly, but I can’t back it up, beaver was permitted during Lent by the Roman Catholic Church in New France as an allowance for a lack of fish. Whoever pushed that one through probably relied upon the general ignorance of the Prelates in Europe of the situation of American lakes and rivers at the time…