Off the top of my head, I can think of advice given to people to reduce their chances of being victims of pickpocketing (given mostly to tourists), identity theft, email scams and burglary.
You know what these things have in common? They involve lsecuring inanimate objects. Actions that are very easy, practical, and non-oppressive to do.
Women aren’t so easy to lock up. Women are not objects that can be hidden away. Put women in burkas and they are still vulnerable because the burkas only heightens the visibility of their female status. Tell women to stay home all day and you deny them their freedom to live like human beings.
Email scams can be spotted because they usually show certain signs, likes requests for passwords or huge sums of money in exchange for things that are too good to be true. The behavior of rapists is less predictable. It’s not like these guys have a signature appearance or schtick. Their tactics are probably as numerous as the number of rapists out there.
In my opinion, rape has more in common with murder than theft. Just like murder, you’re more likely to be raped by someone you know than a stranger. Like murder, rape can be pre-meditated or it can be impulsive. Also, there are serial murderers and serial rapists. But I’ve never see murder prevention programs targeted to potential victims. Same with drunk driving. Google “drunk driving prevention” and you won’t find any tips for how people can keep themselves safe from drunk drivers. But google “rape prevention” and plenty of guidance is directed to women. All of this promotes the idea that rape is a female problem rather than a societal one.
So…you’re asking for it right now? And you’re being a cocktease? But, you know, what’s okay for you to say of women is unacceptable to apply to you.
So, is rape singled out for this type of treatment (where people are told what they should do to protect themselves from a crime)? That was your statement.
Whether it’s effective advice to tell women to dress a particular way, I could not say.
I do not think that most of that advice blames women though. Saying “the chances of this happening to you would have been lessened if you’d adopted a different behavior” and saying “this happening to you was your fault” are two different things. Causality and fault are distinct.
“But I’ve never see murder prevention programs targeted to potential victims.”
True. I think that’s because the probability of being murdered is rather low.
So your answer is…you do not think and you do not know. Perhaps books might be helpful. Why, if only someone had posted a link that led to a study of actual, real life rapists.
But they don’t have enough pictures!
Justification, no. Opportunity, yes.
It’s treated differently than comparable crimes. I don’t think theft really is comparable because securing inanimate objects is a whole lot easier than securing human beings.
When the former statement is said enough times, especially when it’s purely based on supposition and Just World Theory, it starts to affirm the latter statement. If you’ve ever noticed how non-sympathetic people are towards lung cancer patients, this should make sense to you.
Murder is final and singularly devasting, though. At any rate, the number of rapes that can be prevented by dressing conservatively or staying away from strangers is probably fewer than the number of murders that occur every year, but you would never think that based on the conversations we have about rape.
Here’s a mind-fuck along the lines of what you’re saying that won’t be controversial at all I’m sure:
From a heartless unfeeling purely analytical perspective: Rape really comes down to how the person feels about what happened afterward.
If a guy grabs a random girl in the bar and pulls her in and kisses her, that action doesn’t necessarily make him a molester. It’s how she feels about that action afterward that determines it.
If she doesn’t like strangers in her personal space or the guy is ugly or she has a boyfriend or she’s in some public place etc. and like, the guy acts sleazy and calls her a slut etc. she’s left with a negative feeling about the event. That guy was a rapist who molested her.
If she thinks the guy is cute, he says charming things that make her laugh, he plays it off as just a silly little kiss and that he couldn’t help himself because she was so gorgeous and she eats it up because he’s fun and attractive to her, they end up dating and getting married and living a wonderful life together, she’s left with a positive feeling about the event. That guy was forward and romantic.
The actions are both the same, it’s the aftermath that determines which was rape and which was romantic.
The 12yo girl who gets groped in a crowd by a creeper dude is left feeling negative about the event.
The wife who’s groped in a crowd by her loving husband she’s attracted to who whispers “god you’re beautiful babe!” is left feeling positive about the event.
The actions are both the same, but again it’s the aftermath.
Now to take it further, if you have sex with a girl and she doesn’t protest or anything and fully wants sex, BUT you make her feel negative about the event, like you throw her underwear at her, kick her out the door at 4am, calling her a whore, etc., there’s a good chance she’ll get what PUAs call Buyer’s Remorse.
In this state there’s a good chance she’ll view the event as rape.
But if you have the same sex with a girl and she’s protesting the entire time, BUT you make her feel positive about the event, cuddling her after, calming her emotions/anger/etc. down, make her laugh, get her in a good state again, eat breakfast together, take her number, date for a few times, etc. In this state you there’s a good chance she’ll view the event as a romantic sexual adventure.
I would imagine this concept is how abusive relationships (parent who physically/mentally abuses their child but the child believes “I deserved it”, pimp who has hookers willingly bringing him the money they make, wife who’s husband beats her but when the cops come to stop him she maces the cops for hurting him, etc.) are maintained long-term.
This is a very well-studied and broken-down subject in pickup because PUAs are frequently walking the tight-rope separating romance and rape so these concepts are something we encounter far more frequently than the average person and the consequences for fucking them up are severe (jailtime, destroying a girl’s psyche for life, etc.). That’s not to say that PUAs are out raping women and making them feel good about it (though I’m sure a lot of people will spin it that way), but it’s also not to say that PUA concepts couldn’t be used to do that. Again it’s the “knife to make a sandwich or stab someone” thing. I’m only mentioning this in an attempt to avoid the derailing of the thread into a “pickup is evil see???” flamewar. I’m not talking about PUA in this post, I’m just sharing a general concept that relates to this thread, that we have a lot of experience studying first, second, third-hand etc.
And to relate this to the thread itself and not just your post/point specifically, this is again why I don’t think clothes have that much of an influence on the rapist’s intentions and I don’t think it’s the girl’s fault. The emotions the girl feels after the event are primarily in the rapist’s hands. The guy who holds a knife to a chick’s throat in an alleyway on a dark street at night and runs away is leaving her with bad emotions. The husband who knows his wife likes to tease and play hard to get as part of their foreplay and loves when he chases her so he tackles her and aggressively roleplays raping her is leaving her with good emotions. The difference between the two is the final impression.
Again no dog in this discussion because it’s too touchy a subject, just offering up a perspective from having studied and dealt with the subject a shitload.
- TWTTWN
I’m so sorry discussing rape is not entertaining enough for you. Not that that says anything about you.
Studied? Dealt with? You know, the whole idea that women just change their minds afterward isn’t new. YOu’re saying that a woman might consent, then change her mind and lie about it if the guys is a jerk afterward. It’s classic rape apology. You’re apologizing for rapists and saying that victims say one thing and do another.
No, its all about her willingness to be kissed by that guy. Period. All “afterward” will tell you is if you were lucky and hadn’t made a woman do something against her wishes.
Have you really thought this argument you’re making through? The aftermath has nothing to do with anything. You’re acting as though the fact that a groper is the woman’s husband is some trifling little detail, when that’s the thing that matters the most here.
Why not make the scenarios the same? A 12 year old groped by a creep, and a wife groped by a creep. I’m fairly certainly their responses will be equally negative and I don’t have see their behavior “afterwards” to make this prediction.
(bolding mine)
Do you have firsthand experience with this kind of thing? I’m really curious to know how you’ve come by this knowledge.
I guess it’s comforting to know that there might be men out there who have sex with protesting women with the hope that if they serve them breakfast in bed the next morning, there’s a certain probability that they will delude themselves into seeing it as a romantic adventure instead of rape. And by “comforting” I mean “scary as fuck”. Carry on, though.
Hahahaha. Are you one of those people that thinks there’s no such thing? How silly.
All of your subsequent posts make it clear that you do, indeed, think that all men are rapists at heart and most of us just keep it in check. You seem to think that men get ‘converted’ into being rapists somehow. I’m sorry, but it doesn’t work that way.
Yow. Really can’t get with this.
Flirting makes rape victims less sympathetic?
And shouldn’t a normal pleasant date have a little? We hope? It doesn’t give anyone license to… anything.
Blue balls? Seriously? Also, I refuse to argue with somebody who apparently stopped reading in the 1950s.
You think rapists are big scary monsters who are different from ordinary guys. I posted a link that says otherwise, based on actual research that has been duplicated repeatedly. Let me see, who should I believe? Respected scientists or loser who talks about blue balls? God, tough choice.
Oh, and by the way? The majority of rape victims remain women. Women aren’t considered people by a lot of men in the world. Not my opinion, but look at the statistics.
Rapists are accepted as ordinary people. I wonder how many guys here accept the story of their buddy Joe who claims some crazy bitch accused him of rape, when in reality she just changed her mind afterward because he didn’t serve her breakfast in bad. And that’s a few comments above mine. She changed her mind because he didn’t treat her nice.
I’m aware. But it hasn’t been studied in the past the way it’s been studied in the PUA community. This is a very important topic for us, as I explained.
This happens. Not in all cases, probably not even in the majority of cases, but to pretend this doesn’t happen is pretty naive. Also she doesn’t necessarily even consciously lie…she literally rewires the facts/events in her brain to the point where she fully 100% believes it. It’s fascinating, from a psychological perspective.
No, you’re exaggerating because this is an emotional issue that hits close to home with you and you like to categorize people as rape apologists because demonizing people is easier than debating what they’re actually saying. There are plenty of real rapes. But there are plenty of grey areas as well, it’s not a black and white issue. The fact that there are women (even on this very message board, do a simple search and you’ll find tons of examples) who will admit that they have rape fantasies is the simplest example of those grey areas.
Nope. It’s not random luck. It’s a set of observations and procedures that are often followed instinctually but can be consistently duplicated if the knowledge/skill is there. In the example of a random guy doing something to a girl, she has nothing to base her reaction on before it happens since she didn’t realize he existed. So in the instant as it’s happening and the time after it happens, she constructs a view of the guy and the interaction, and backwards rationalizes what happened and how she feels about it.
[QUOTE=Wikipedia’s Self-deception link]
rationalization is influenced by a myriad of factors, including socialization, personal biases, fear, and cognitive repression. Such rationalization can be manipulated in both positive and negative fashions; convincing one to perceive a negative situation optimistically and vice versa.
[/QUOTE]
etc. etc.
You kind of have to piece the concepts all together because again, outside of the PUA community this, as far as I know, isn’t something that people really sit down and combine these things together and apply with regards to pursuing sexual relationships. But it’s a very obvious concept when you’re exposed to it regularly.
Not just thought, I’ve experienced the situation many times and know people who have.
Yes. It does. See my last post that explains exactly why it does. I understand this is an emotional topic for you but that doesn’t mean the underlying psychological structure isn’t there just because you don’t want to acknowledge it. Cognitive Dissonance, Buyer’s Remorse, Self-perception theory…the human mind rewriting it’s view of history/events is not an unheard of concept.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEInbnz5XG0 - Here’s everyone’s favorite Mythbuster DOING exactly this on video. This is a very common thing.
No I’m not. I specifically stated that that was the important detail and gave 3 examples where that detail is the relevant part that defines the interaction. Are you reading what I write?
Because when you give an example comparing two different things it doesn’t make sense to give the same example twice instead of opposite examples?
Yes. Obviously. I don’t see where I disagreed with this. A 12 year old groped by a boy she has a crush on and has been dating for 6 months and they picture getting married someday together can be a postive experience, equally as positive as the wife being groped by her loving husband. This isn’t even a point that contradicts what I’m saying, like I honestly don’t know why you wrote this part.
Of course you do. Otherwise you’d be implying that the physical act of sex happening while the person resists automatically equals rape. And if you were saying that, you’d be saying a woman groped by her lover is rape. And anyone who has sex on the first date is raped or is a rapist. And people in loving BDSM relationships are all being raped the same way a 12yo groped by a creeper stranger is being raped. That would be a ridiculous position to take up because obviously there are a lot of people who would disagree with those implications. Please clear this up if you’re going to state psychic predictions like this as facts.
Do I have firsthand experience with observing someone’s memory of events change based on their state? Yes. Lots. Most people have. Whether it’s someone calling the movie they just watched “the scariest movie EVER!!!” (because they’re still in the adrenalynn pumped moment of having been terrified for 2 hours, when really it just happens to be the most recent scary one they’ve seen) or whether it’s someone interpreting a casual statement as an attack because they’re in a bad mood, or someone justifying their cheating on their diet, significant other, blah blah blah by rationalizing it, etc. etc. etc. etc.
But yes, I have experience with this kind of thing in relation to sex, and have met many guys and girls on both ends of this spectrum. A lot of guys who have regular one night stands and fuckbuddies understand this concept.
Exaggeration AND sarcasm all in one paragraph! Nice! I don’t really expect you to believe it because very few people (especially women) have the experience of seducing a large amount of women and the ins and outs of why certain things produce result A and certain things produce result B. You seem to have a very set point of view and that’s fine if that works for you. I’m not trying to convince you of anything…I’m saying this IS how the human psyche works. You don’t have to believe the Earth is round either, that doesn’t change the shape of it.
This happens. It’s not every rape and it’s probably not true very often, but http://www.simplypsychology.org/Memory%20Distortions.pdf It’s silly to pretend it doesn’t for the sake of furthering the agenda of casting all men as evil lying rapists.
Still no dog in this, I’m just defending actual real life experiences against “but I don’t like that so it can’t be right grrrrr!!!111” arguments now.
- TWTTWN
Black and white, black and white…
The problem with this topic is that it inherently lives in the shades of grey. We’ve all agreed that the classic definition of stranger, or child rape isn’t what we are discussing here. We likewise aren’t talking about a rapist attacking an elderly patient, or a minor in their care, etc… In these cases clothing and actions are really irrelevant and the crime is cut and dried, simple to understand and condemn.
So let us agree that we are discussing those crimes whose definition hinges upon the perception and consent of the victim for their definition rather than those that are obvious. This is the very real problem with date/ acquaintance rape. How do we define consent? Do we need to get a signed legal document to feel that we have the liberty to be a bit forward with a partner? I should hope not. Human interactions in negotiating for sex are complex and based upon a lot of signals; and while certainly any partner has the right to terminate an encounter at any time, (that right is absolute) they also should understand that they are going to be pressured harder to continue the farther along they take it. This is normal and part of having sexual relationships with* another human* who likewise has wants and desires.
A person who has been engaging in sexual flirtation and play all evening has the absolute right to terminate that contact at their discretion. When their partner objects or tries to pressure them a bit they aren’t suddenly being all rapey. They are aroused, confused, and probably indignant, (rightly so). It is only when a partner forces his or herself beyond the point of objection that a true crime has occurred.
I don’t like watering down the definition of rape merely to make people feel better about their ill advised choices. It does a disservice to the true victims of a violent crime and only adds to rather than breaking down the social conventions of “slut shaming”. Someone who changes their mind the next morning hasn’t been raped, they are an idiot. Someone who allows herself to be plied with alcohol all night and doesn’t object hasn’t been raped, she’s made poor choices. Someone who becomes uncomfortable with a formerly pleasurable situation, “freezes” and fails to object in any manner hasn’t been raped, they failed to remove their consent.
In all these types of interactions dress and demeanor play a large role; certainly in the first stages of the encounter. To bring this point back to the original topic, a woman who dresses in a provocative manner should expect to receive sexual attention. It is one little step of unspoken consent along the road to a sexual encounter. Part of steering the night toward a pleasurable conclusion is reading, interpreting, and responding to these signs. Sexy dress is no different than silently consenting to touching during a make out session by not removing a partner’s hand. It’s one little stop along the way. I think of this more like the right to free speech. We can say whatever we like to, our right is protected by law; but we also will bear the responsibility for our words. A woman has the right to dress sexy for whatever reason she may have. That in and of itself certainly does not provide sexual consent to all and sundry, but it does send a very direct message, and she should be aware of and expecting that sexual attention will be paid to her.
In my opinion, victims of any crime are rarely entirely irresponsible for placing themselves into a dangerous or questionable situation. That is NOT the same a victim blaming. The attacker always bears the entire responsibility for their choices and actions. We do not have to dangle bait in front of them though. We don’t have to poke the bear with sticks. I do not believe that an empowering , and equitable culture allows people to act in a provocative and often irresponsible manner and then simply relieve them of their guilt because we feel terrible that something bad happened. Doing so cheapens the real horror of actual victims and that is something I’m not comfortable with at all.
Or maybe you simply like to make excuses because being a pick up artist is loathsome and you have shitty, sexist opinions about women. There's no *areas* when it comes to rape. If she says it's rape, it's rape. A bunch of losers who can't get laid and resort to lies and manipulation to get women into bed are exactly the last people in the world whose opinion matters.
And some women have rape fantasies and so that proves your disgusting sexism about women huh? “Well, some women here prove this about other women here, some totally different thing.”
If somebody calls a black woman a welfare queen they’re racist. And if somebody says women don’t get raped, that they just change their pretty little minds afterward because the guy didn’t bring them flowers, they’re sexist.
In the real world, we all know that this isn’t how it works. A woman more than likely would have seen that guy at least 10 minutes before he made his “attack”, and would have already sized him up as either a potential or a reject based on his demeanor and appearance. During the grab, she’d also know whether his breath was pleasant, whether she felt threatened by the way he was touching her, etc. It’s not as if she’s a blank slate until after the deed is done. From his perspective, he might think she didn’t realize that he existed, but that’s not how things are. Women are fairly attuned to their environment.
I guarrantee if the woman sees a warty troll reaching out to kiss her, she’ll know before the kiss that the contact is unwanted. These kind of blind scenarios don’t happen outside of PUA fantasy, even if women allow you believe that they happen by pretending to be surprised when you pull stunts like this.
Right, and it’s why most people think PUAs are creeps. Doing shit like groping women and kissing them randomly in the hopes that their targets rationalize it as a pleasable experience sounds exactly like those mind games that people say PUAs play. Touting PUA knowlege in a rape thread is not helping their image either.
But you compared a creep molesting a 12 year old with a husband touching his wife and then, with a straight face, declared the actions to be the same. This is asinine, sorry. You can’t call the actions the same when the actors and actees are completely different, and then expect to be taken seriously when you say the response “afterwards” is what matter. Becuase there’s no rationalization involved for either scenario.
See the stupidity like I see it: It’s midnight, I’m in bed, and I hear the front door open.Then I hear footsteps. My bedroom door opens up slowly. In one scenario, it’s my boyfriend who walks in. In another scenario, it’s Freddy Fuckin Kruger. Why does the first scenario bring me joy while the second causes me to shit myself, when the actions are the same? Gee, I dunno. Could have something to do with who is in my house. There is no after-the-fact rationalization going on here. Freddy Kruger invading my house is entirely differently than my BF letting himself in the front door with a key.
I please beseech you to lay off the douchiness in this thread. Comments like this make you look like an ass because they went out of style in 1953.
I didn’t think I had to say the obvious. But obviously I do, so I will.
Having sex with someone who is resisting–as in protesting the entire time, as you wrote–is rape. By any definition that I know.
Are you really telling me that this is incorrect? That proceeding to undress and have intercourse with a woman who is resisting and telling you no, is not rape? Forget about responding to anything else in this post, just answer me that question.
Yeah, it is it the same as victim blaming. Christ. You just placed the responsibility for the crime on the victim’s shoulders, not the rapist’s and whined an awful lot about blue balls and how those poor men are being subjected to cockteases and women who changed their minds afterward. So you called women teases and liars.
It’s not shades of gray to anybody but you, champ. You don’t have consent to anything because she’s wearing a short skirt. All she’s consenting to is wearing a short skirt. Maybe it’s hot outside. I know this might be a shock to a guy who so obviously thinks he’s such an expert on women—those minxes!----but sometimes women don’t give a shit what you think about their clothes. They wear them because they like them.
When you refer to women as bait and men as bears, you’re revealing way more about yourself than you really should.