In the Wagner opera cycle Der Ring Das Neibelungen, in a translation from German to Italian to English, Wotan asks Albreich, “Are you malicious or merely insane?” I discussed this with a friend who believed it was the most safe to assume that an opponent was malicious.
They = We.
We allowed this to happen. We killed this little girl.
Again, you’re reading a lot into this that isn’t in the linked article. And the fact that this is your immediate response indicates you are a flaming asshole.
After reading some of the politicization of this tragedy, I’m struck by how many people seem to be under the impression that the election of Donald Trump transformed DHS and Border Patrol agents into Orange Minions, suddenly callous and unfeeling, willing to let a little girl die because the racist and hateful aura of the president perverted their very being.
These employees have been working for years, many of them through multiple presidencies. The processing of people who cross the border illegally is probably a lot like any government-run detainment process: slow and crowded. It could have happened under any presidency. Indeed, it probably has, it just never made the news.
I’m believing something that the article does say–septic shock. That is something that doesn’t develop in a few hours and something that has a mortality rate of 40% or more with medical attention. And that is with someone who isn’t already starving and dehydrated.
What the fuck is your deal? You say that you hate Trump, but time and time again I see you pushing the pro-Trump narrative, pulling ideas from pro-Trump websites.
Trump is the one who changed our refugee policy to make it harder to accept people. He’s the one who changed the policy so as to create the child concentration camps. He is the first president in my lifetime who has been explicitly anti-immigrant. He’s the one who keeps on treating these people as our enemies. He’s the one who has made it where refugees try to sneak in, going to more remote locations where this sort of thing can happen.
So we have plenty of reason to think this is something caused by Trump. What evidence do you have that it is not? Not “I bet this happened under previous presidents.” That’s not evidence. That’s just making an assumption to defend Trump. If it happened before, show actual evidence.
And be careful with the whataboutism/tu quoque. Even if you find such evidence, you will not prove that this is not wrong, and that a good President should not be actually trying to fix these problems. All you can do is establish that the problem predates Trump.
And don’t forget that you have to establish that it was as much a problem as before. Because the default is that Trump’s policies he admits are designed to hurt refugees and immigrants will in fact hurt refugees and immigrants.
And if you are just a Trump supporter or Russian troll who is trying the “I’m a Republican but I hate Trump” thing while sneaking in pro-Trump stuff, don’t bother. We will detect that, no matter how you try to couch it.
OIf course they love DG. DG says he isn’t a fan of the trumper goons, but then he goes and talks exactly like they do.
No, you aren’t. You got “septic shock” from the article, yes, but you went beyond that to make the claim that the child would have died no matter what.
She was reported not to have any of the symptoms of sepsis when she first arrived. If this is false, then they did a bad job, and that’s a problem. If this is true, then she was not hopeless when she arrived.
All that is required is that they know she had not eaten or drank in a few days to know that they needed to feed her or give her fluids. If she refuses food directly, that is a reason to put her on an IV to try and save her.
If you’d just said that she was clearly in a bad way and that even treatment may not have helped, that’d be fine. You could say you’re not sure.
But you decided to say for certain, and to turn around and blame the parent for trying to bring his kid. You know, the shit that “Trump and his goons” do. Always being sure it’s not their fault, and blaming the immigrants.
I’m willing to accept this may have been a situation where nothing they could have done would help. But it also seems to me that they didn’t try. Maybe it’s all due to an accident. But I would never actively choose to assume without proof that any of this is the case.
First of all, I’ve never said I “hate Trump”. Secondly, I’ve never pulled from “Pro-Trump” websites, unless you count National Review, which I cite often and, currently, has on it’s front page “Republicans, Don’t Fool Yourselves — Donald Trump Is in Serious Trouble”.
I’m pro-truth from a conservative angle.
I said “probably.” Would it satisfy you if I changed that to “more than 40 percent likely?”
The most fascinating part of this is that you preface your challenge against assumptions by declaring that “we have plenty of reason to think…”, which is itself an assumption.
Withholding water to a detained person for 8 hours in itself is inhumane, add to this the condition of the refugees, and environment of the point of crossing/detainment and these people show just how uncaring we can be towards each other. Now add to that someone in medical need of water and we have to stop letting the inmates run the asylum, the very worst of us brutally enforce the rules, this goes for agent orange sitting in the oval orifice as well.
I say once again that nobody has said that anyone was denied water. Septimus pulled that straight out of his ass.
She died of dehydration 8 hours after being taken into custody. How much water do you suppose she was given?
Oo! Oo! I know! Call on me!
You didn’t answer my question.
Okay, I’ll try again–
1.) She died from septic shock, a blood disease caused by an infection and a condition that is (as I linked earlier) fatal in more than fourty percent of cases even with hospitalization. The dehydration was surely a contributing factor to her weakness, but septic shock was plenty to get the job done no matter what.
2.) Severe dehydration is more than just a loss of water, it is also a loss of electrolytes and just drinking water not only doesn’t help that, it would make matters even worse by diluting the electrolytes that remain.
3.) The quoted article in the OP does not say that she wasn’t given water, the quoted articles say that they haven’t commented on the matter. The article I linked goes even further and says that they do say that they offered water, but don’t confirm if she drank it. They haven’t commented on wherther she was beaten about the head with a frozen mackerel but that isn’t confirmation that she was beaten about the head with a frozen mackerel.
Look, if they had taken in a healthy child and she died after a few weeks in custody, I’d blame ICE. But that isn’t what happened–what happened was that a dying child was brought in and they didn’t evacuate her to a hospital as quickly as would have been ideal. If the group of migrants had been a few hours later arriving, she would have been another anonymous body abandoned in the desert.
If you came upon someone who was 8 hours away from dying of dehydration, do you suppose that person might look thirsty?