Espirix - What “worked” for South Africa? It’s as big a hell hole today as it ever was.
Forgiveness is a term bandied about by religious folks who don’t undersand that only their God is capable of providing the forgiveness they themselves wish to impart. In most cases forgiveness is a code word for passivity in the face of evil. Nothing in any of the major Western religions prohibits righteous venegance.
Forgiveness is so utterly inappropriate that I am astonished anyone would even suggest it.
**
It won’t be as simple as that. We’ll have to identify other threats and take them out as well. This isn’t a problem that’s going to go away with a few examples of military force. This is something the United States will have to commit to in the long run.
Forgiveness is not an option. Sometimes you can do things that are so horrible that no amount of apologizing or restitution will make up for it.
Marc
When you find a Christian society, you let us know.
I’m inclined to hijack here in order to discuss just how willing Ghandi was to use violence under certain circumstances (physical, economic, and emotional violence), and what exactly his goals were (he certainly wasn’t out to eliminate the caste system), but perhaps I will save it for another thread.
If we ever want to move past this, each person must reach some point of forgiveness in their own heart and mind.
Lest we give into the same cancerous hate that bred this unjustifiable action.
I do think that ‘supreme’ forgiveness comes from the Lord.
I also think that forgiveness is separate from justice, and from the circumstances that actions such as this require.
How can we exhibit grace and mercy in this instance.
My thoughts are most likely feeble. But ‘we’ as a people need to understand that the people responsible are not the people from that nationality and/or country. We should show those that reside in our country that are of mid-eastern background, that we will learn from our errors in the past.
We can show grace and mercy by seeking sanctions and unaminity in the international theatre, before we resort to bombs and missles. We can show mercy be insisting that those responsible for planning, and assiting in this attack be arrested and tried for their crime. We can show restraint by be very precise in how we explain the consequences of non-compliance with the sanctions and/or pursuit of these sick people.
In the end missiles will most likely fly, and bullets shot.
But I’m not convinced that is the BEST option.
I think it’s obvious that violence merely begets violence. How do you think the US got in the position that there are people in the world who despise the US?
But as others have said here, forgiveness isn’t a viable option in the real world, especially in this situation. There will be retribution, but all we really want is to go back to the world as it was on Monday.
And that won’t happen.
I take it you’ve never heard of South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission? It was set up at least in part by Bishop Desmond Tutu to heal the country after the atrocities committed during apartheid. It was designed to essentially be a public confessional - you come in, you admit your wrongdoings before the country, you are confronted by those you hurt and/or their families… and then you are forgiven. From what little I’ve seen of it, it had to have been the most difficult decision that country ever made - but in the end, it seems to have been the right one, at least for them. Although I wouldn’t term it a “hell hole,” I’d say the country is a damn sight better off than it was under apartheid, and, IMHO, part of this was because of the forgiveness given through the T&RC.
Esprix
and what do you believe will be the long-term effects of forgiving this act of savagery?
There are lots of appropriate responses, and I think most of us are having them to some degree: sorrow, grief, horror, despair, fear, compassion and love for everyone who is suffering.
What I am about to say will surely enrage some folks, especially people who already hate me, but I’m gonna say it anyway.
To respond to this act with an attitude of rage, to focus like a laser on the end result of retribution (sometimes referred to as justice, but you can sell that someplace else), is to align ourselves emotionally and spiritually with the men who committed this act.
Now, before you become apoplectic, listen to what I’m saying: * ** I am not saying that what they did was right or justified. It absolutely was not. ** * But their motives were not random. Whether we “agree” with their view of it or not, I’m 100% certain that the men who did this did not wake up one day and say to themselves “Gee…I’m bored, I think I’ll fuck up the US”. Nor were they sick, evil people in the way that Ted Bundy was a sick, evil person. * In their own minds *, and in the minds of their supporters, of which there are many (again, unlike Bundy or the Columbine shooters), they were exacting retribution, revenge and “justice” on us. They were filled with an unimaginable rage.
We don’t know and can never know what their life experiences were and how responsible the US might have been. All we know is that they believed we had caused evil in the world, and they were filled with anger and rage towards us. And the only way they saw to deal with it was to commit violence on a horrifying scale.
So now they have wronged us, and ** we ** are filled with rage (well, not me) …and our response is to inflict violence on innocents and call it righteous? And no one sees the irony in this?
I have read in several threads people saying they are willing to have innocent civilians suffer for what these men and their co-conspirators have done. Not deliberately, but if some innocents are killed or hurt along the way, that’s just too damn bad. I find that attitude reprehensible and indefensible.
I’d like everyone who really believes that the only response is more violence to show me how well such an attitude has worked at “stopping” terrorism in Isreal? The Israelis are the toughest, most intolerant, unforgiving people on earth when it comes to terrorism. Has it stopped it? Israel is probably the most “terrorized” nation on earth!
I am not saying that we should just say “oops!” and forget about it. We should certainly determine who is * really * responsible, who assisted these men, paid for this, etc. Find out who was directly responsible. Then prove it in a court of law and punish them for it. That’s fine and proper. But all this talk of war is bullshit. I think it is grotesque and inexcusable to kill innocent Americans because you are pissed off at the American government, and I think it is grotesque and inexcusable to kill innocent Afghanis/Iraqis/Iranians/Palestinians or whatever because of the actions of their government.
But that’s exactly what we are about to do. As I type this I am hearing reports of ground troops and bombing…not yet clear on where or when, and I hope it isn’t so.
stoid
Forgiveness does not abrogate law
I commented elsewhere in agreement with this essay and this essay why it is inappropriate to “turn the other cheek.”
If a man kills my family, I am obligated to forgive him. However, the law must still lock him up to protect society. He has proven himself a danger to society, and out of that desire (not revenge) society removes his ability to threaten people.
By the same token, terrorists and rogue states that harbor them must be held accountable for their actions in the international arena. I must forgive the men who piloted the plane into the WTC, but we (the global community) must protect ourselves from such lawlessness in the future. That means removing the ability of terrorists groups to implement something like this again. Which means military action, and removing the ability of rogue states to harbor, train, and support terrorists. If our motivation is not revenge, but rather a goal of protecting ourselves and other nations, then we have turned the other cheek, yet upheld the law.
I’m interpreting the OP to ask, “Could you ever forgive the attackers for what they did?”
Since I am reluctant to use the word “never,” my response would be “maybe, but extremely improbable.” I mean, since we’re talking about an unprecedented crime here, the amount of atonement must be equally unprecedented.
[SUB](Though I must admit I find it slightly amusing as an atheist to hear the folks who are so quick to argue that Jesus would turn to violence as a response. Guess those Christian lessons of peace and tolerance only work when it’s convenient…)[/SUB]
Well, I don’t wanna mess with your head or anything, but it seems * we * “harbored” them for about a year, and * we * trained them. And they did this with knives. What exactly is it you think you are going to be able to stop?
And let’s no one forget who the original trainers were… us. Osama learned everything he knows from us.
Your grasp of reality, logic and proportion defy credulity.
**And let’s no one forget who the original trainers were… us. Osama learned everything he knows from us. **
Let’s see your damn cite on this one, babe.
Forgiveness is the smell a rose leaves on the boot that has just crushed it. The terrorists deserve to die.
That sounds reasonable to me. If we find that the governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan assisted/paid for it, then military action would be the most effective way to apprehend them. Or would you rather pursue them the way the international community has pursued Idi Amin, Pol Pot, or Saddam Hussein?
No sweat, * babe * !
Um, “we” didn’t harbor and train them. If you can’t see the difference between places like Afghanistan (government supports Osama Bin Laden and refuses to extradite him), Libya (has government-organized camps for training terrorists), and the US (people train to fly airplanes in a US school without the knowledge of the US that they are potential terrorists), then there’s little I can say.
Sure we did. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that it obviously does not require a big bad government plotting and spending to make this happen. There was nothing elaborate about this at all, and the only tricky part was learning to fly the planes…which they did right here in the good ol USA. Everything they needed to accomplish this was right here.
Attacking other countries, killing masses of people, destroying encampents of terrorists won’t solve a damn thing. When you are dealing with determined people who are intending to die to carry out their mission, there isn’t a whole lot you can do to stop them. And this thing was incredibly simple. Buy plane ticket, hijack plane through murder and threats of murder, fly plane into building. Really incredibly simple.
stoid
Does forgiving this act of savagery have the potential to transform the minds of those who see us, because of their belief systems, as quite literally devils? Perhaps.
Does responding with military might have the potential to transform the minds of those who see us, because of their belif systems, as quite literally devils? Unlikely.
Yeah, so he was trained by the US twenty years ago when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. So What. Millions of people were trained by the US at one time or another. That doesn’t make the government responsible for all their actions for the rest of their lives.
It may come as a shock to you, but the government can make mistakes, and take actions that turn out to be bad ideas. Does this mean we can’t do something to correct our mistakes?
Nostradamus said:
Well, I appreciate the irony of commenting about the future to someone using the name “Nostradamus” – but how do you know. If the Christian fundamentalists are right, they’re gonna be burning in Hell. If Eastern reincarnationist faiths are right, they’ll be paying for this evil in suffering in future lives. And, strangely enough, people sometimes do repent of their evil, given time and spiritual growth.
“Forgiveness” does not mean calling up Bin Laden and saying, “Hey, that’s OK, we didn’t really mind you destroying those buildings and killing all those people.”
It suggests that we not return evil for evil, but find a way to repay evil with good.
In my mind, at least, it’s quite compatible with actions ensuring that those who perpetrated this stuff, and those who support them, are prevented from ever again being able to do anything harmful to us.
Distinguish surgical removal of the evildoers’ ability to do evil from revenge or retaliation. This is no more difficult than distinguishing between the posts of ExTank and of Wildest Bill.
Stoid has been right on target in her stance, though unfortunately I have not seen positive steps to implement it in her posts. (And I may have missed something.)
I don’t propose a specific course of action, but, like her, a moral stance of prevention of future evil acts combined with standing above terrorism. If a three-year-old somehow gets a loaded machine gun, you don’t kill him in a preventive strike; you use your own greater strength and mature wisdom to take the machine gun away from him before he does kill someone. In this case, we waited too long to do so, being blind to what the kid was doing. Now it’s time to clean up the mess. But let’s not sink to their level in doing so.
Abraham Lincoln once said, “The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him your friend.”
No we didn’t. The government did not provide assistance to the group involved. The US government did not become aware of a terrorist in its midst, only to keep him as a “guest” and prevent extradition, while claiming he wasn’t capable of doing anything.
There were quite a few elaborate elements to this. There were coordinated hijackings, planned to a degree so that after altering flight paths the planes would hit their targets within minutes of each other. Their travels, forged papers, and schooling were financed by an organization.
Oh and one more thing the masterminds have accomplished that they need the help of a government is: evade capture. You see, when terrorists can commit atrocities and then hide in another country, that is most definately “harboring” the terrorists. You can bet if there weren’t a government hiding bin Laden and his ilk, they would not be committing the acts we’ve seen recently.
If the masses of people are terrorists and trainers thereof, it will accomplish quite a lot, thank you very much. Showing other countries that they’re declaring war on us by harboring terrorists known to have struck US territory will show those countries that there are consequences to harboring terrorists. If there are no rogue nations to hide terrorists, then there will be nothing in the way of hunting down and eliminating murderers like bin Laden. Furthermore, cooperating governments can seize his assets so that he can no longer finance operations like this. This will markedly reduce the ability of terrorists to plan and carry out such despicable acts.
As I’ve stated above:
[ul][li]you can deprive them of funding[] you can remove the governments which are hiding them[] you can utterly destroy any training camps/organizations which are training them[/ul][/li]Indeed, there seems to be a lot we can do about them.
There are a number of people in law enforcement, intelligence, counter-terrorism, etc. who seem to disagree with you. Yes, some of the elements were simple, but the action as a whole was anything but.
If you want to discuss this further, I suggest starting (or joining) another thread.