First off, like many Americans, I am not a practicing Christian, however, I was raised in a predominantly Christian society. As such I mostly adhere to mostly Christian teachings.
So, again like many people around the world, I have been struggling with and thinking about and considering and pondering the recent attacks. Of course, a natural human reaction is to demand retribution, “find out whoever did this and whoever harbored whoever did this and bomb them back to the stone age!” Who hasn’t felt that sentiment if only for a split second?
On further consideration, that solution can be supported by our society’s need for catharsis, for a symbolic event that will provide closure for all Americans. We choose the language of war in order to separate these terrible acts from the realm of crimes so that we are not limited to “legal” solutions. No one would accept the perpetrators being brought before a court.
That considered, I found my heart unsatisfied. So we identify a bunch of targets and release our wrath, is that it? What was the something missing?
There is a word, a concept, an unexplored avenue that I have not heard spoken by our leaders or by the media or by anyone (that I have found) on our SDMB.
As much as I hate to sound like one of those dewey eyed kids at camp (and I really do hate to sound like that) the question comes, “What would Jesus do?”
The answer is…forgiveness. It would take a level of courage that I don’t personally think America is capable of.
I don’t know about forgiveness * per se * , but I absolutely DO know that all this talk of rage, anger, revenge, punishment, retribution, war, make them pay, rah rah rah sis boom bah makes me sick.
The exquisite irony of it seems to be escaping just about everybody.
I don’t feel anything yet. Not even a whole lot of rage. Just sadness, and fear. So I can’t “forgive”, per-se.
I do know one thing - we have to fight back, stop the people responsible for this, or we are doomed. If we don’t, they’ll do it again, and again, and again. It’s our only option.
So even if we do “forgive” them, we still must stop them. Or far more lives will be lost. I don’t really feel much either way about “revenge”. But I want to be protected - I am all for self-preservation. Which means we have to stop them, and fight back. And it won’t be nice, or pretty, but we really have no choice.
The problem with “forgiveness” is that the perpetrators of this unprecedented attack on our country don’t give a shit whether we forgive them or not.
Maintaining our freedom and safety has always been an expensive, difficult, and sometimes ugly endeavor.
It’s not about revenge and retribution. It’s about preserving our way of life that we have fought so hard for.
Not to sound trite, but I’m glad my grandparents’ generation didn’t forgive hitler or japan.
This isn’t bloodlust. It is taking the steps necessary to preserve the things that generations have worked so hard for. It’s not catharsis. 10 thousand americans were slaughtered two days ago, and as others have mentioned, it will happen again and again unless we take action. How long must we wait? Do we wait until the next terrorist releases anthrax? Do we wait until bombs go off in dozens of major cities? Do we wait until planes fly into nuclear power plants?
Sorry for ranting, but we need to step up to the plate, show the courage our grandparents did, and do whatever it takes to neutralize this new threat we are faced with.
Irrespective of what Jesus might have done in these circumstances, I don’t see any point whatever in forgiving people who are never going to be sorry for what they have done.
Stoid, what do you suggest? Really, this isn’t sarcastic or anything, I’m wondering what you think is an appropriate response.
As far as forgiveness…well, I want justice. Not blood, not retribution, not war. Justice. The question of what justice is, in this case, can not be answered yet as we still aren’t completely certain of who is responsible, including co-conspirators or what have you.
If there is a government or complicit in this attack, such as the Taliban, then I think we’re justified in considering this an act of war. I saw Schwartzkopf on the other night, and he made a statement to the effect that during the Gulf war, we went out of our way, even to the point of endangering our own soldiers, to avoid putting civilians in the line of fire.
Turning the other cheek is to invite further attack, a response must be made. But it must be justice, not revenge.
As an atheist, I have the luxury of not giving a rat’s ass what Jesus would do.
What I don’t have the luxury of doing is pretending that failing to respond in proper proportion to these attacks will have any result other than further attacks. Terrorists didn’t stop after Beirut. They didn’t stop after the Achille Lauro hujacking. They didn’t stop after Lockerbie. They didn’t stop after the 1993 WTC bombing. They will never stop, unless we, and the rest of the world, make them stop.
I say we tell their parents… that’ll get them in trouble. I don’t care if I am a tattle-tail.
As I’ve written before in other posts, that’s loser talk. The fact is that these bombings will continue no matter what we do. This is the hardest part to deal with… but we have to address it.
I would be embarrassed to be an American (and a human) if we didn’t stand up for ourselves. We are obligated to.
To offer forgiveness is an invitation for more carnage… an expression of acceptance that I’m unwilling to extend. Even Ned Flanders would strike back.
Seems to me the trick is not to respond excessively – giving measure for measure, eye for eye, means that justice must be proportionate. So, we should not “go after” all Muslims, or all Afghans, or whatever; our response must be directed at the persons or groups responsible, and those who harbor them, equip them, and train them.
Them, we should blow outta the water. Or roast over a slow fire.
I am not looking for justice, I don’t think there WILL be justice in this case. The US is not going to get justice, there is no justice in this case. We are going to achieve ruthless retribution. It is how we assure safety. Justice implies that we are more right than whatever country we are bombing. If one person besides bin laden and his men dies, then there was no justice achieved.
Is forgiveness an option? No.
It simply just is not an option.
If we ignore them, more people will die.
If we turn the other cheek, more people will die.
If we scold them, more people will die.
If we slap them on the wrist, more people will die.
There isn’t a way to get them to play nice. They have their own agenda, their own outlook on life. They will not see reason, so the only option is to make them see death.
I would rather have American soldiers fighting the good fight and dying on the front lines than innocents in buildings being set aflame and crushed to death.
Response is needed. Forgiveness has no place in this scenario.
The “God Squad” was on MSNBC last night…they are a Jewish rabbi and Catholic Priest who have their own tv show and often speak on the role of religion in society. Rabbi Marc Gelman noted that while some eastern religions have a “no violence ever” element to their belief systems…the religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not. They all have a belief in justice, when necessary. He did a nice job of distinguishing justice from retribution.
Any reponse on our part should be done with a sense of proportion and justice, not blood thirsty retribution.
Forgiveness (if that implies a lack of physical response) is not an option for me.
Along the lines of what zuma, Nostradamus and others said, I do not believe forgiveness is an option unless the other party acknowledges their wrong doing and takes step to ensure that it will not recur. In the absence of those, all forgiveness does is make you more vulnerable, and devalue your self worth.
Does a battered wife necessarily forgive her abusive husband, or is it better for her to take steps to prevent continued abuse?
That said, any response should be appropriate as needed to reduce the threat of recurrance. We must make sure that we do not sink to the terrorists’ level and unnecessarily wreak terror upon an entire ethnicity or community.
Revenge and bloodlust are very real and powerful emotions. But we are fortunate enough that we have the ability to reason, thereby avoiding giving in to our basest instincts.
Any military action that is taken should be (and, I believe, will be) designed to eradicate the threat to the national security of the U.S.A. and our allies.
My Lord calls on me to forgive; to love my enemies. I hope I can eventually be a good enough Christian to do that. I don’t feel capable of it right now, and it’s overwhelming to me. But turning to your higher power in overwhelming times is what it’s all about.
Forgiveness, love, peace and the other ideals of my religion do not equal inactivity. They don’t preclude justice, defense, or even a need to go to battle when necessary.
I only forgive people who apoligise for thier actions and fully accept blame.
But even if they did that it would not be couragous of the US to forgive them. The goverment is supposed to secure our safety. Forgiving the responsible is not going to accomplish that. Going after them will. I’m for going after known terrorist groupes BEFOR they attack the US.
I’m not suggesting that forgiveness is inactivity. On the contrary, I see forgiveness as powerful and potentially transformative.
Overall the consensus of responses to the OP suggests that forgiveness is not an option. At least not in this case, the circumstances are just too heinous.
So, for me, this begs the logic question; If forgiveness fails in the most trying circumstances, then forgiveness fails, it is not a valid option at all. If forgiveness is valid it must be valid in all tests. Otherwise we begin sliding down the slope of drawing a line, everyone will draw it at a different place. I, for one don’t accept that result.
My suspicion is that the show of might, no matter how effective in immediate terms, will have no effect in the long term. There will be a constant battle waged into the future by terrorists. After all, whoever we kill now has sons and nephews.
What is needed is transformation. How can that be achieved? Is forgiveness valid even in the most trying circumstances? And is it’s transformative power equal to the challenge? And does a Christian society have the courage to use that power?
Indeed, I do not deny we are talking about the threat to human lives. I am reminded of the early Christian martyrs and Ghandi’s non-violence. Their courageous struggles could be seen as resulting in utlimate success, albeit at the cost of lives.