Is George W. Bush actually stupid?

Great Debates
181

Unless you believe in some kind of immense Zaphod cover up, where the president is just a figurehead to attract all the unwanted attention away from the real power holders, to me the idea of a stupid president sounds an awful lot like some kind of contradiction in terms – unless of course a majority of Americans are really stupid. So I’ll just ask like I did the last time this one popped up: I don’t know what’s more stupid. The stupid guy, or the people stupid enough to vote in the stupid guy? On second (that’d be third now) thought I know. So am I by all this to assume the old slur of stupid Americans is true afterall? Do you Americans who believe Bush is stupid thereby also believe the majority of your contrymen are stupid too?

  • Rune
182

By fortunate I assume you mean that he comes from a wealthy family. That would also include a few million people in this country. Why GWB for president if he is so stupid? I no doubt believe that quite a few of his classmates at Harvard & Yale were also from wealthy families. How did this guy become a succesful businessman, Gov. of Texas & then President of the USA if he is so stupid? I am sure most will automatically point to being wealthy. There are alot of wealthier people in US. There are some from even more politically connected wealthy families that have tried & failed to become President (Ted Kennedy, who got expelled from Harvard)

I can understand not agreeing with the policies of the man & calling them stupid, but trying to make a point by calling someone stupid is what second graders do on the schoolyard.

Youroldbuddy - Sorry, this is not directed at anything you wrote, I was just using your post to start off.

183

That is quite an indictment of one of the most prestigious universites in the world.

184

I love you guys. You guys really crack me up sometimes. :slight_smile: This ‘debate’ has all the ear marks of the “Who was REALLY responsible for 9/11” ‘debate’. Evil Captor, rjung, Rashak Mani, etc, you guys remind me of the guy that was convinced the US had really done it (or was it Israel? He kept switching back and forth), and basically nothing could convince him otherwise. Its essentially like trying to convince a fundamentalist that evolution happened, or a flat earther that the world is round (well, a sphere anyway). Can’t be done. Not only can’t you be convinced, but there is no debating with someone who “just knows”.

You guys have allowed your hatred of the man to totally cloud your intelect…you remind me of my dad. Absolutely NOTHING Clinton could do was right…he was just evil, grasping, self centered, sexually promiscuous, stupid, etc etc…on and on, blah blah blah. He (my dad), who is normally a very intellegent and rational man, was totally immune to any kind of reason and you could never have a discussion with him about it…he was too emotional. He just ‘knew’…

Look, I don’t like GW either. I think he’s made some bad mistakes, basically fucked up multiple times, and is a fairly poor president overall. I didn’t vote for him before, and won’t vote for him this time either. But inspite of that, I can look beyond all that to see that the guy is not stupid…IMO he’s of better than average intellegence in fact (though I flatter myself by saying I’m quite a bit smarter than he is…based on his supposed IQ and SAT scores at least :)).

Just because I don’t agree with him, just because I think the decisions he’s made were wrong, doesn’t make him stupid…it simply makes him wrong. You claim you ‘just know’ he’s stupid…and there is no argueing with that. There is no debate here, because there is no possibility of rationality when you go there. I’ve been in enough debates with fundamentalist types over religion to know that when you pull out the “I just know card”, its over…there is no talking to you. Test scores, achievements in life, etc…you are immune to that, if you can wave them away by simply claiming they were bought and paid for by daddy, part of some nebulous conspiricy, or whatever. Don’t let the facts get in the way…I can wave those away with pure speculation. Sounds a lot like “God put those fossils in the rocks to test us…” to me…

I think you guys are fairly intellegent (well, all but one of you…but you know who you are :)), but in this matter you have closed your mind on the issue, and are reacting no better that some bible thumper out there…and to me, thats just sad.

As to the speech thing…well, I have to admit I haven’t listened to any of his speeches lately…when I see him, I usually just turn the channel. Not because of his supposed gaffs, but because I just don’t like the man, and can read the news later about whatever he’s babbling about. That said however, I remember some of the speeches he did after 9/11, and while I won’t say I was totally enraptured, I have to say he wasn’t THAT bad. I’ve certainly heard worse. Myself, I’m a terrible public speaker, though (if its in spanish) I do fairly well debating with friends.

Reguards,
XT

185

Hmm I dont think that the hate directed at GWB is as big a factor here as you might think, xtisme. It has already been pointed out that neither Powell, Cheney or Ms. Jones or any of the other advisors are thought of around here as stupid. You should have read the thread.

186 
Sucessful ? I thought his only sucess was a sports team ?
187 
Sucessful ? I thought his only sucess was a sports team ?
188

Thanks for the advice YourOldBuddy, but as it turns out, I DID read the thread. Did you? If so, then I find it hard to believe you can tell me with a straight face that many of the posters are thinking rationally on this subject. If they ARE, then where is the beef? Where’s the proof that GW IS stupid? All I’ve heard so far boils down to “He’s stupid 'cause I think he’s stupid, cause he talks stupid, cause I don’t like his policies…I just KNOW, so there!”. Not much of a debate so far, with the GW ‘supporters’ being the only ones to actually bring anything substantial to it.

Any proof to the contrary put forth so far is shot down with the same old crappola used by conspiricy theorists or fundamentalist religious types (i.e. he only got those grades cause his daddy bought them for him, he wasn’t a REAL pilot, Harvard obviously let him slip through cause he’s rich, he wasn’t REALLY successful in business despite the fact his companies made money, God put those fosils in the rocks to trick us, etc etc ad nausium).

Not so? By all means then, quote the relevant passages I missed clearly showing he’s stupid. Show me the cites proving he got his grades through dishonest means. That his successes in business weren’t really his. Show me the cites showing his SAT scores are wrong, a hoax, or that he paid someone to take the test for him or paid the board to give him the scores. Show me that a basically stupid man who is claimed by some here to be below average in intellegence just kind of bumbbled his way to the president of the worlds most powerful nation. Extra ordinary claims need SOME fucking proof, no?

As to the rest of your assertion:

From YourOldBuddy

No, they are thought of as evil, corrupt, etc etc. by those who are on about all this. Its just a different brush thats used on them, but the same knee jerk reaction (though admittedly, I’m not real fond of them either, and some of the corruption stuff I’d by pretty easily). I fail to see the point of your assertion in any case…just because THEY aren’t thought of as stupid, what does that prove in your mind? I’d love you to clear this up.

Ya, I think that some in this thread have totally clouded their minds about the man. They WANT him to be stupid and evil, so there for he is. They can’t disconnect their own prejudices to even discuss the guy rationally. There are a lot of REAL bad things he’s done and is…but no, they got to make shit up. Guess it helps them sleep at night or something. Honestly, I even doubt that half the posters who are making the assertion REALLY believe he’s stupid…they just want him to be. The really funny thing for me is, this is the same shit that happened when Clinton was in office…its just turned around. Its often ironic for me as I sit on the fence and watch the two sides hack at each other…it keeps me ammused at night…

-XT

189

Well let’s say for a moment that Bush in fact is stupid. (Something I didn’t say in the beggining of the thread… I said he was ignorant and medium at best… ) How do you go about proving it ? His grades aren’t the whole picture… nor would any business sucess if he had them in quantaty. What he has said kind of helps determine his half wit… but then again some people speak badly. What he has done since taking office is kind of valid too… So in the end how do you expect us to have a rational discussion on the subject xtisme ? How about you get off you fence and tell us how we could rationally do it ?

190

Rashak

This is not a rational discussion. You either like him or you don’t, agree with his administration or not.

191

Which does say something about the Bush admin doesn’t it ?

192

Not any different than any administration before it.

193

ok…

194

Sitting on my fence (i.e. being registered Independant) provides me WAY too much fun, Rashak Mani, for me to consider coming off it. In seriousness, there are simply some issues I’m conservative on and some I’m liberal on, and neither of the big parties really ‘fits’ me well. As for Bush, it amuses me no end to see the left foaming at the mouth over the guy…as much or more than it ever amused me to see the right do the same about Clinton. I can sit back and watch, knowing I voted for neither of them, smug in knowledge that MY candidate wouldn’t have been such a fool. :wink:

From Rashak Mani

Honestly, I don’t see how one is possible. The only really objective means we HAVE of determining whether he is ‘stupid’ or not ARE his grades, test scores, etc. Anything else is speculation…i.e. ‘I just KNOW he’s stupid!’.

Past grades and test performance are the only means we have would determine objectively if ANYONE is ‘stupid’, without subjecting them to some professional testing and analysis…no?
So, to have a rational discussion on this subject, someone would need to gather up all his grades, academic performance, tests, etc. Next, after getting all that together, someone would have to define exactly what ‘stupid’ is, and we’d then need to agree upon that definition. After that, we could simply, objectively, compare the data accumulated on GW with our ‘definition’ of ‘stupid’ and make a determination.

I think I’m pretty unbiased as far as GW is concerned. I don’t like the man, didn’t vote for him, but I also don’t see him as the font of all evil, nor do I think that EVERYTHING he does is wrong, evil, motivated by greed, etc. From MY perspective, by MY definition of ‘stupid’ (someone of below average intellegence), no American president is or has ever been ‘stupid’…i.e. of below average intellegence. I can’t even concieve of anyone who could GET to be president as being such.

-XT

195

Would Forrest Gump have invaded Iraq?

196

Don’t tell me you didn’t understand the theme of Forrest Gump! Come on-- you’re smarter than that, aren’t you?

XT: Nice posts. You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Of course, this whole thread would’ve made much more sense had it taken place in the BBQ Pit.

197

From elucidator

lol. Well, having read the book, I’d say ole Forrest probably would have ran into SH while jogging through the desert, and accidentally knocked him down one of his WMD tunnels. :slight_smile: Either that or saved him while he was swimming in the river outside one of his palaces, like he did for Mao at the ping pong tournament.

-XT

198

I agree with the posters that find George Bush to be sub-par in terms of the intellectual capacity to perform his job.

I disagree with those who claim this impression is part of the VAST LIBERAL MEDIA AGENDA ™. In general, I don’t find coverage of him to be all that critical, and when he gives a speech from the Oval Office he and his handlers have complete control as to how he appears. It is during these times that he comes across as a complete fool.

His real trouble, however, is not intelligence, it’s illiteracy. Try as he might to conceal it, it’s fairly plain that the man just can not read well. This is not a sign of stupidity (as much as I wish it were), but simply a problem of the wiring in his dyslexic brain. All other aspects of his supposed stupidity mentioned (bad grades, lack of inclination to study reports, etc.) can be traced back to this, although I agree that the photo linked to at the beginning of the thread was probably just a mistake while posing for the photo op.

(It is NOT, if you ask me as a computer professional, a digitally doctored photo, as described by the page author. You can see the edge of another copy of the same book coming into view from the left. It’s simply the book the class is reading, and Bush got his copy looking upside down. I doubt that is a sign of his illiteracy, just a mistake that got caught on camera.)

As far as his speeches are concerned, his obvious inability to wrap his brain around what he’s talking about stems more from his concentration on getting the words from card to camera at all, than on his lack of ability to comprehend the subject.

Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s absolutely the worst man to be in his office at this time, but dyslexics deserve the benefit of the doubt in terms of how intelligent they appear.

Of course, one might wonder at the intelligence of someone who spends so much money to get a job they will have so much difficulty with…

199

I, for one, would ask for more solid evidence of his alleged stupidity. Actual I.Q. scores, for example, that demonstrate stupidity. Or grades which demonstrate below-average performance in school. And none of this “Oh, his father must have bought him better S.A.T. scores! Surely that’s what happened!” crap.

200

Sam Stone
In an earlier post, you wrote:
“Why does this stupid question come up so often on this board? Can’t you guys deal with a Republican without calling him stupid?”

Later, you wrote an entire post on the media wrongly pegging Bush and how it prefers to tag labels on public figures.

So, if you think the mainstream media (which I agree, sucks) plays up this image and some dopers also feel the same way, what does it have to do with Bush being a Republican? Could it be that Bush does APPEAR stupid? (whether he actually is or not)

Didn’t you also say that the media has derogatory labels for other presidents, Democrats and Republican?

And, if Republican==Stupid for some guys, why don’t the same guys think of Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell or Rice as stupid?