Is George W. Bush actually stupid?

Great Debates
201

Both sides of the fence tend to caricature their opponents. The Republican caricature is that they are either stupid, or in bed with the rich, or evil. Quayle was stupid (he wasn’t). Bush is stupid (he isn’t). Reagan was stupid (he wasn’t). Ford was clumsy and stupid (he was a star athlete, and very smart).

The only exception to this among presidents or vice presidents in the recent past is Bush I. But he was portrayed as a rich guy who didn’t understand anyone else. Remember the furor over his asking a question about a grocery store scanner?

Oh, and Nixon. He was evil. But he doesn’t count as a caricature, because he really was evil.

Cheney, Ashcroft, and Rumsfeld are portrayed as evil men. Republicans who aren’t stupid are Machiavellian. They never have the nation’s best interests at heart and simply differ in opinion from Democrats. They’re always accused of being there to make their friends rich, to help big corporations take over, etc.

Republicans think Democrats have bad ideas. Democrats think Republicans are bad people.

202

Sam:

To be fair, there are many Republicans who think Dems are bad people. Some of them write books with the title Treason.:slight_smile: Otherwise, I do agree with your post. Good point about Ford-- how many Americans know just how good an athlete he was?

203

Sam
Not disagreeing with the stereotypes. But, as I said, it could be possible that certain individuals do come across as “stupid” and I am not denying that the stupid stereotype can play a part.

Bush does blabber quite a bit.

204

Here’s your moment of Zen…
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20031102
Premises like “Oh yeah, what if he was smart in college, but all the drinking turned him into an idiot?”, or “Maybe he really didn’t attend classes at Harvard” really illustrate the level of hatred involved. I’ll reserve comment as to what else is illustrated.

The fiasco that was Election 2000 set the stage for fractured public opinion. The bastards on either side of the fence who were fanning the flames higher and higher made sure that there were enough catch-phrases and catcalls to eliminate real analysis from the situation. This is what I refer to as a “bubbafication” of the issue. As long as the spinmeisters can get their henchmen in the media to spew the same trite catch phrase until the bubbas can parrot it on their own, nothing will ever get properly examined.

Note that all sides perform these little dances… Bubbas in this instance are defined as those whose stance on a given issue is primarily driven by examining a particular subset of media which support their pre-conceived notion, and gleaning snippets to brandish like a poorly-fitted golf club when their worldview is challenged.

To paraphrase Radiohead:

“Just because you feel it,
Doesn’t make it so”

-Rav

205

Your basic premise in the first post was that because posters hated GWB and disagree with his policies, they paint him as stupid. I pointed out that some of the ppl surrounding him have the same sentiments directed at them without being thought of as stupid.

I personally think he is stupid based on all the data available to me. You say that his achievements, and SAT + IQ proove that he is above average. I’d say that his achievements actually promote the suspicion that he is stupid. I speak with some authority on personality testing and high IQ’s dont make ppl smart. They test IQ’s that is all. All we are left with is a high SAT score. His families involvement in his military career, his political career, his business involvement + legacy seat admittance to Yale makes me doubt all his career. Running profitable oilcompanies and correlation to intelligence is neglectable (sp?).

Personally the “crusade against terrorism” remark was in my mind so monumentally stupid that it alone would have made him an incompetent a**hole in my book. Way more stupid than anything Quale ever said.

206

QUAYLE WAS NOT STUPID ?! Oh come on. Why do you think so ? I mean Bush says some pretty silly things… but Quayle in comparison made some of the most assinine comments ever. I really thought Quayle was stupid guaranteed.

207

Folks:

Just because someone says something that you think is stupid, doesn’t make the person stupid. As an example, William Shockley was the Nobel prize winning scientist who invented the transistor. However, he’s also famous for some “stupid” ideas about race and intelligence:

Although, I’m beginning think that I’m stupid since I keep openning up this thread expecting the rabidly anti-Bush folks to have come to their collective senses.

208

No, Quayle wasn’t stupid, depending very much on how you define ‘stupid’.

Compare him with a bunch of theoretical physicists, and yeah, he would be stupid. Same goes for most of the rest of us.

Put him in with a bunch of randomly selected politicians of all parties, he was probably near the average.

He was unfairly savaged by reporters – remember the quote (from memory) to a group of Californians, “I love southern California – I was raised in Phoenix”, implying that he thought Phoenix was in southern CA, instead of nearby? That was a distorted, low blow.

In defense of the reporters, expectations were high. And there were a lot of smarter Republicans GHWB could have chosen.

But saying Quayle was stupid was a lot like saying that Gore claimed to have invented the internet – a cheap, sneaky one-liner.

On preview, I second what John Mace said. And for further reading, I recommend the writings of Isaac Newton, the greatest scientist who ever lived, and a frequent jackass.

209

John Mace,
If someone came on this board spouting information they couldn’t back up, using poor grammar and repeatedly referring to “nukular” weapons, what would your estimation of their intelligence be? Granted it wouldn’t be a scientific assessment, but still wouldn’t you form a negative opinion?

210

I just want to say this thread title makes me chuckle every time I see it; in my top five for the year, at the moment.

That the discussion/debate has raged on for 206 posts is genuinely hysterical.
Yep, he is!

Nope, he aint!

211

Well, once again the hamsters have eatten my post. :frowning: This board is about as frustrating of an experience I can have while still remaining facinating. sigh

From YourOldBuddy

I must be missing the logic here. How does the fact that the opposition is not calling those around Bush ‘stupid’ verify that he IS stupid?? Clinton was called a sexual pervert (or sexually promiscuous I suppose) as well as a bunch of other things. Those AROUND Clinton weren’t called such things…they were attacked by the opposition on other things. I must be missing something here that ties this together.

As to the rest of your post. Well, if we don’t use the only objective data we have, then this whole ‘debate’ basically boils down to you telling me “He’s stupid 'cause I say so…and I know, so trust me”. Not that I’m calling into question your obvious expertese (of which I know exactly zip about), but my question to you would be: Have you ever sat down with the man face to face? What tests to determine if he was ‘stupid’ did you administer? What were the results? You never did?? Well then, I’d say you are purely speculating, and as you obviously dislike the man (to put it mildly) you are obviously (to me) biased…how can I just ‘take your word’ on it??

FromJohn Mace

I agree…I feel like I’m beating my head against a very thick brick wall here. What will be funny is, 2 years or so from now, when/if a Democrat is in the WH, watching all these same rabid Bush hating types using all these same arguements when the rabid conservative types make the same lame ass assertions against THEIR golden boy. I can hardly wait to fight with the rabid conservatives about this same stupid shit. I’m getting a helmet…

-XT

212

I guess I must conclude that I am stupid, since I came back into this thread yet again.:slight_smile:

I’d think the person was opinionated and maybe a bit lazy. But I’d judge their “stupidity” by objective, measurable things like test scores if I didn’t have a lot of personal one-on-one interactions with that person.

As for “nukular”, it actually is a pet peeve of mine. But I know lots of intelligent people who pronounce it that way, and I see it more as a regional thing than anything else. Carter, also a southerner pronounced it the same way. And didn’t he actually study “Nukular” Engineering in some compasity?

I had a fellow working for me awhile back who was from the South and used to say things like “I don’t do that no more” all the time. But the guy was a brilliant engineer, actually a world recognized expert in his field.

Actually, I would consider anyone stupid who claims that Bush is stupid. Because, as has been pointed out ad nausium in this thread, the facts simply do not support it.

213

Rashak Mani: While I would never argue that Quayle was brilliant, he was certainly above average in intelligence.

The guy earned a B.A. in poly sci and a degree in Law.

Quayle was elected to Congress at age 29. He won re-election in the biggest landslide in the history of his district . He was then elected to the Senate at 33, the youngest ever to be elected from his state. He was re-elected in 1986 in the biggest landslide the state had ever seen. Both of his wins were against popular incumbents, not open seats.

Once in the Senate, he continued his meteoric climb, making it onto the Armed Services Committee, the Budget Committee, and the Labor and Human Resources Committee. Usually, such powerful perches are reserved for senior senators with several terms behind their belt. Quayle finished his meteoric climb by becoming Vice President at age 41.

Up until this point, Quayle was a star. Admired by everyone who worked with him. Sponsor of several very successful pieces of legislation (on of which he co-sponsored with Ted Kennedy, who at the time had nothing but praise for Quayle). And let me point out that unlike Bush and Gore, Quayle did not have a powerful political family behind him. He pretty much achieved everything he had up to that point on merit.

Once the national campaign started, Bush’s opponents attacked Quayle based on his youth and relative inexperience. Quayle then stumbled a few times in front of national cameras, and the ‘idiot’ label got stuck onto him. After that, the media did what it does whenever it labels someone - it follows him around 24/7 trying to catch him in any act that reinforces their label, because that makes news and makes people laugh. Plus, many on the left outright lied and made up stories to make Quayle sound even dumber.

The same thing happened to Ford. It started when he accidentally beaned a spectator on camera while golfing. Then, he tripped going down the steps of Air Force 1, and the ‘klutz’ label took hold. Chevy Chase made it a running gag, and by the time Ford was defeated, everyone was convinced that he was an uncoordinated, bumbling boob. In fact, he was a star athlete in college, a scratch golfer, and in general naturally gifted athletically.

214

I see. If that’s the case, then what does your poor grammar, spelling and punctuation say about you?

Mind you, I’m not drawing any conclusions about your intelligence. I’m just pointing out that such a simplistic analysis is rather self-defeating in this case.

215 
Wow I am quite surprised... thou I had less acess to news at that time due to my youth... just from media comments and those famous quotes of his.  The Phoenix one is pretty bad some of the environmental ones were nasty. How did he manage so many stupid quotations is beyond me... 

 I will take your word for his lack of stupidity then. As I don't have enough references from that period to say otherwise. Living and learning. The media can sure label someone.

I don't think the media has labeled Bush as "stupid" thou... at least not the international and american media as far as I perceive.  They did label him more of a cowboy and gung-ho style....
216

I never stated that grammar, spelling or punctuation was indicative for intelligence. It might mean that English is my 4th best language and that Im not really proficient with English.

Anyway, the data available to me is not all in the account I gave earlier. I was just summarising the data posters have revealed to the effect that Bush is not stupid. It was kind of lightweight, I know.

Im not completely sure that Bush Jr. is stupid. I just think he is based on that data available.

Yes you are and it doesnt. I never said it did. Read again. You basically said in your first post that ppl hate Bush very much and disagree with his policies and that is why they think he is stupid. I only said that it is not the reason or at least not the only reason or else everyone of the other chickenhawks would be labeled the same using your reasoning.

217

I like Dennis Miller’s line best. How GeeDubya surrounds himself with intelligent advisers the same way a doughnut hole surrounds itself with doughnut.

218

The point is that one shouldn’t draw firm conclusions based on such sparse data, which is precisely what you’re doing with Bush.

219

Sparse data being 2 years in office, his policies and the whole Iraq debacle ?

220

I saw that too-- it was good!

But then, many in the Bush-bashing crowd have called D.M. an idiot, too.