Is having children selfish act?

[QuickSilver]

@Machinaforce

In other words such a person who lived a “full life” and still would have preferred death is just an opinion. What if they were not in chronic pain? What if after traveling the world, studying philosophy, sex, piano, etc they still would prefer death? What then?

@Machinaforce

I just saw that comment made on a forum by someone else and it makes me call into question once again whether or not one should continue in life. If someone did all that and prefers death, what then?

@Machinaforce

It’s mostly in regards to antinatalism and whether life is worth living or not. This is relevant.

Here’s what’s relevant. You show a distinct pattern in speaking in hypotheticals. Have you personally made the attempt to live life? To travel? To seek and find intimate relationships? To play a musical instrument? To participate in formal advanced studies on any subject? To participate in a sport and improve your fitness and skills? To get involved in a hobby? To volunteer to help others? To challenge and improve yourself in any significant way? To strive and achieve?

People who value life tend to agree that these things are their own reward - they give their life meaning in spite of any other negative events they may face. If you’ve not attempted to achieve anything significant in your own life, then I don’t think you are making informed decisions about the meaning of life. All you are doing is parroting cherry picked opinions that serve to excuse your own depression and nihilism. Thus, you certainly have no right to speak on behalf of others in drawing conclusions about whether life is worth living or not.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Machinaforce

The point is that since when we are alive we try to minimize suffering and maximize pleasure…

If you believe this, that is sad. Some of the most deeply satisfying things we do *require *suffering. If you ask me – and you certainly don’t corner the market on philosophical truth – the purpose of life is to find the things worth suffering for. Your apparent quest to create a life free from suffering or to view suffering as some kind of Always Terrible Bad Thing is ultimately what makes you so miserable. It is your very aversion to pain that creates it.

As someone with chronic depression and a really shitty childhood, I’ve often contemplated whether I would have been better off aborted. It’s really pointless navel-gazing. I’ve also had panic attacks about existence because of all the horrible things that could happen: war, genocide, abduction by a serial killer, surgery without anesthesia, being burned alive… and on, and on, and on. What we’re really dealing with is a cognitive distortion that assumes that having one of those experiences, however horrible, somehow cancels out the rest of life. To get really morbid for a moment, it kind of boils down to a question like: ''Was being loved by my husband worth being burned alive?"

Yeah, of course it was. The value of my life is not calculated by the worst things that ever happened to me.

You don’t get to answer for other people.

[Spice_Weasel]

To address your OP more directly, I think everything we do has some element of selfishness to it. I don’t judge other people for giving birth to children because reproduction is about as close to an objective purpose as human beings have… but I’m often plagued by the reality of all the unwanted children out there, and that is ultimately why I made the choice to adopt. I would be happy if more people were willing to adopt. I think that would be a net good for society. It neatly bypasses all the existential questions because those kids already exist, and someone has to love them.

[Machinaforce]

@QuickSilver

Here’s what’s relevant. You show a distinct pattern in speaking in hypotheticals. Have you personally made the attempt to live life? To travel? To seek and find intimate relationships? To play a musical instrument? To participate in formal advanced studies on any subject? To participate in a sport and improve your fitness and skills? To get involved in a hobby? To volunteer to help others? To challenge and improve yourself in any significant way? To strive and achieve?

People who value life tend to agree that these things are their own reward - they give their life meaning in spite of any other negative events they may face. If you’ve not attempted to achieve anything significant in your own life, then I don’t think you are making informed decisions about the meaning of life. All you are doing is parroting cherry picked opinions that serve to excuse your own depression and nihilism. Thus, you certainly have no right to speak on behalf of others in drawing conclusions about whether life is worth living or not.

Once again a distraction from the main point of the argument. This isn’t about me. If I said yes to all that and still felt the same then what? Either way its irrelevant to the present conversation. Not that you have added anything to this besides the expected responses.

[Machinaforce]

@Spice_Weasel

If you believe this, that is sad. Some of the most deeply satisfying things we do *require *suffering. If you ask me – and you certainly don’t corner the market on philosophical truth – the purpose of life is to find the things worth suffering for. Your apparent quest to create a life free from suffering or to view suffering as some kind of Always Terrible Bad Thing is ultimately what makes you so miserable. It is your very aversion to pain that creates it.

As someone with chronic depression and a really shitty childhood, I’ve often contemplated whether I would have been better off aborted. It’s really pointless navel-gazing. I’ve also had panic attacks about existence because of all the horrible things that could happen: war, genocide, abduction by a serial killer, surgery without anesthesia, being burned alive… and on, and on, and on. What we’re really dealing with is a cognitive distortion that assumes that having one of those experiences, however horrible, somehow cancels out the rest of life. To get really morbid for a moment, it kind of boils down to a question like: ''Was being loved by my husband worth being burned alive?"

Yeah, of course it was. The value of my life is not calculated by the worst things that ever happened to me.

You don’t get to answer for other people.

But the argument would then follow that just because you feel that way doesn’t mean others would or that your case should be an example of such. Plus there is a psychological phenomenon that explains your view. When we struggle for something we tend to value it more than when we just received it. It’s why hazing creates strong bonds in fraternities and why climbing a mountain is different than taking the helicopter. The end result is the same. It’s a strange feature of the human brain. Then again it could be evidence for endorsing needless suffering just to create value, assuming that the suffering does yield anything.

The fact is that, I too, am troubled by how much bad there is in the world and how much of it humans are responsible for (especially to each other). It makes the antinatalist argument seem more real.

I tend to agree with the adoption point, there are far too many without homes and people want to birth more? Plus you’d get to skip the crying and diapers phase.

[Shodan]

@Machinaforce

But the argument would then follow that just because you feel that way doesn’t mean others would or that your case should be an example of such.

Do you see that the above is a fairly complete answer to the anti-natalist position?

Just because the anti-natalists feel that any amount of suffering is worse than any amount of happiness doesn’t mean that others would feel that way. And therefore for them to argue that other people shouldn’t have children is invalid.

If someone is miserable, that’s too bad. If that someone feels that they don’t want to have children because they expect their children to be just as miserable, that could be seen as a valid choice. For that someone to argue that I shouldn’t have children because they don’t think it’s worth it, then either happiness is a subjective opinion that is true for anyone who asserts it and the someone is wrong, or there is some way to establish that happiness is not subjective. Which is more than a stretch.

I understand that you are miserable. That’s very sad. Most people aren’t, and you have produced no reason to believe that they should be miserable and thus not have children.

Regards,
Shodan

[Spice_Weasel]

@Machinaforce

But the argument would then follow that just because you feel that way doesn’t mean others would or that your case should be an example of such.

Correct. Take this little flash of insight and turn it inward, and you’ll see why you’re annoying so many people. You are perfectly entitled to feel that life is not worth living, but that does not make it objective truth, or a logical conclusion. Your problem is that you seem to think it does. You seem to believe your feelings are facts. This is a hallmark of cognitive distortion, most often seen in… wait for it… clinical depression.

ETA: The big picture here is that life’s meaning doesn’t have anything to do with the facts. We’re all dealing with the same set of realities about the world, and have come to vastly different conclusions, which should clue you in that nobody has established an objective meaning to existence, we just have feelings about things we’ve experienced and make sense of it the best we can. It’s a total fuckin’ free-for-all.

Plus there is a psychological phenomenon that explains your view. When we struggle for something we tend to value it more than when we just received it. It’s why hazing creates strong bonds in fraternities and why climbing a mountain is different than taking the helicopter. The end result is the same. It’s a strange feature of the human brain.

What a ridiculous idea. I can’t fathom where you came up with that.

[QuickSilver]

@Machinaforce

Once again a distraction from the main point of the argument. This isn’t about me. If I said yes to all that and still felt the same then what? Either way its irrelevant to the present conversation. Not that you have added anything to this besides the expected responses.

Can you say yes to any of it? If not, then this is nothing but sophistry.

As to, then what?.. Then one must decide whether one has the courage of one’s own convictions.

You’re not fooling anyone. This ALL about you. Regardless of how you try to dress it up, this isn’t some deep lofty debate about the meaning of life and everything. This is you obsessively consumed with the fact that you can’t find meaning in your own life and expecting others to do your homework for you. Sorry, but no. That’s not how this works.

Let me remind you that I didn’t drag you in here to tell you that your life has no meaning. You did that all on your own. So don’t get mad at me because I’m not playing along with your self involved little pitty party games.

[Spice_Weasel]

@QuickSilver

Let me remind you that I didn’t drag you in here to tell you that your life has no meaning. You did that all on your own. So don’t get mad at me because I’m not playing along with your self involved little pitty party games.

Let’s be clear – he didn’t come in here to tell us his life has no meaning. He came to tell us that none of our lives have meaning and none of our future children’s will, either. Because he knows THE TRUTH and we are all just deluding ourselves.

There may be more than just clinical depression going on here. He seems to think that whether or not life has meaning, or is worth living, is based on some kind of objective criteria. This in itself seems like magical thinking to me. As if the code can be cracked through logic, as if life can be breathed into meaningfulness with some well-reasoned argument. Humans are fundamentally emotional beings, and our orientation toward existence is largely emotional. That is true even if you reject the mental illness paradigm. Logic is a useful tool, but it can’t solve existential angst. There is no argument that will make Machinaforce happy because his position isn’t based in reason.

[QuickSilver]

@Spice_Weasel

Let’s be clear – he didn’t come in here to tell us his life has no meaning. He came to tell us that none of our lives have meaning and none of our future children’s will, either. Because he knows THE TRUTH and we are all just deluding ourselves.

There may be more than just clinical depression going on here. He seems to think that whether or not life has meaning, or is worth living, is based on some kind of objective criteria. This in itself seems like magical thinking to me. As if the code can be cracked through logic, as if life can be breathed into meaningfulness with some well-reasoned argument. Humans are fundamentally emotional beings, and our orientation toward existence is largely emotional. That is true even if you reject the mental illness paradigm. Logic is a useful tool, but it can’t solve existential angst. There is no argument that will make Machinaforce happy because his position isn’t based in reason.

I think we’re in agreement. I just wanted to make the point that he’s projecting his nihilism on everybody else as a way of avoiding dealing with what really is his own issues. Easier to view the entire human race as broken thus avoiding the responsibility of having to face his own problems.

[Machinaforce]

@Spice_Weasel

Let’s be clear – he didn’t come in here to tell us his life has no meaning. He came to tell us that none of our lives have meaning and none of our future children’s will, either. Because he knows THE TRUTH and we are all just deluding ourselves.

There may be more than just clinical depression going on here. He seems to think that whether or not life has meaning, or is worth living, is based on some kind of objective criteria. This in itself seems like magical thinking to me. As if the code can be cracked through logic, as if life can be breathed into meaningfulness with some well-reasoned argument. Humans are fundamentally emotional beings, and our orientation toward existence is largely emotional. That is true even if you reject the mental illness paradigm. Logic is a useful tool, but it can’t solve existential angst. There is no argument that will make Machinaforce happy because his position isn’t based in reason.

Because so far the logic you pose doesn’t address antinatalism. There have been like two posters here who know what it is and where I’m coming from.

[Machinaforce]

The fact is that antinatalism lists some hard truths out for people. That to be born into the world means you will suffer, perhaps great or small but in some way you will. Considering that there is no logical reason to reproduce it seems ill to visit a chance of great suffering on someone not yet born. We have no moral duty to bring in happy people into the world but we do have one to not bring in those who would suffer.

The other fact is that the people who are born into wealthy countries are lucky that they aren’t subjected to the conditions present in less affluent societies. The majority of people live in poverty and our happiness is built on their backs. Everything we enjoy has to come from somewhere. It’s truly a privilege to wonder what one wants to do with their life, as many don’t get that choice. Additionally there is the fear of death that lurks in most people, never having been born would prevent that as well as much other suffering.

I believe the arguments are called assymetries. When one exists pain is bad and pleasure good, but in regards to potential individuals then the absence of pain is good while the absence of pleasure is not bad. It could also be argued that stopping breeding would prevent others from having to endure the struggle that is live, the pain of desires that don’t always come true, and the fleeting nature of this existence.

There is a lot of bad in the world and it’s quite easily inflicted, society shields us from a good deal of it but at a cost. Whether its other humans or living beings. The good that is enough to outweigh the bad is hard to find, if any do find it.

It seems like reason is on their side, which is what scares me. That what little that keeps me alive is nothing more than mere survival instinct. It’s like you said, the will to live is mostly emotional.

[mikecurtis]

Not to throw fire on an already all consuming blaze, but. . .
Now Gloria Steinem is equating having children with climate change

Listen, what causes climate deprivation is population. If we had not been systematically forcing women to have children they don’t want or can’t care for over the 500 years of patriarchy, we wouldn’t have the climate problems that we have.

[Spice_Weasel]

[QUOTE=Machinaforce]
We have no moral duty to bring in happy people into the world but we do have one to not bring in those who would suffer.
[/QUOTE]

This is an opinion, and not a fact. Do you understand that? I’m asking because as you construct your argument you’re begging questions left and right.

When one exists pain is bad and pleasure good, but in regards to potential individuals then the absence of pain is good while the absence of pleasure is not bad.

Begging the question. This might be an opinion you agree with, but it’s hardly an unassailable premise. You’re treating it as true because you agree with it, not because you’re looking at it objectively.

It could also be argued that stopping breeding would prevent others from having to endure the struggle that is live, the pain of desires that don’t always come true, and the fleeting nature of this existence.

It could also be argued that all that stuff is worth the potential joy in life. Anything can be argued, and it is all subjective opinion. Your feelings about whether or not this is true are completely irrelevant to whether or not it is true (as are mine.)

The good that is enough to outweigh the bad is hard to find, if any do find it.

You have absolutely no logical basis for drawing this conclusion. You’ve claimed that the majority opinion is irrelevant but you are appealing to it here, with no evidence.

It seems like reason is on their side, which is what scares me. That what little that keeps me alive is nothing more than mere survival instinct. It’s like you said, the will to live is mostly emotional.

Survival instinct is what keeps all of us alive. I’m sorry, but that’s reality. You can’t reason someone into wanting or not wanting to live. I sincerely do hope you get the help you need in learning to accept this cold, bleak reality about existence. Some of us manage to find a way through. Will to live, and all that.

As an aside, you’ve stated in past threads that you don’t give a shit about other people. I’m curious why all the sudden you give a shit about people that don’t even exist yet?

[Spice_Weasel]

Honestly, I think the reason I keep beating my head against this brick wall is that some part of me gets it. I hate that there are no fucking answers. I hate it. It seems like maybe 2% of the people in the world are really preoccupied with this, and I’ve gotta be one of them. Most people only think about their mortality or life’s inherent lack of meaning when they have some life-shattering experience. A lot of people keep that angst safely at bay via religion. (Which I did once too, I know all about it.)

I want very badly for there to be a single, unassailable truth that reveals what we are supposed to do with ourselves on this planet. And as I scream this fact into the void, the universe responds:

Tough shit.

We don’t get our answers, except the ones we make. As my man wrote,

[QUOTE=Nietzsche]
“Whither is God?” he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him – you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

“How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us – for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto.”
[/QUOTE]

When I first read that quote, at the tender age of 18, it scared the shit out of me, but it also exhilarated me.

It’s very simple, man, and very hard: We have to become our own gods.

The alternative is a bullet to the brain, and I’ll tell you what’s kept me alive more often than not: a sense of duty to other people. Not just the ones I love personally, but all the people, I won’t fucking cop out on life and leave everyone else behind, with one less person who gives a shit. It’s the same reason I won’t move to Canada no matter how pear-shaped shit goes in the U.S.

So here’s a benevolent argument for child-bearing: You raise kids who also carry that sense of duty, who will alleviate suffering. You make a future with better people in it. You come to that conclusion through a host of assertions about what is morally good, equally subjective as those of Machinaforce, no less true or false, because as far as universal truth goes, buddy, it’s just not there.

[QuickSilver]

@Machinaforce

It seems like reason is on their side, which is what scares me. That what little that keeps me alive is nothing more than mere survival instinct. It’s like you said, the will to live is mostly emotional.

We all come from non-existence and end up in non-existence. No exceptions. Logic indicates that one tries to make the most of existence while one is able.

*Dum vivimus, vivamus. *