Is indoctrinating your religion to your children moral?

Great Debates
41

Two things about this thread bother me. Both seem to be occurring with increasing frequency on the SDMB.

The first is people who unintentionally attribute Christian beliefs to all religions. The OP said:

Yes, this is true of Fundamentalist Christians, and of some other religions. But it is by no means true of all religions. There are religions which believe that there are numerous paths to enlightenment, and theirs is only one of many ways. There are also religions (Judaism being one of them) in which “getting to heaven” is unimportant and not a significant part of religious instruction.

Perhaps it is evidence of the OP’s indoctrination that he subconsciously associates what he was taught of Christianity with religion in general.

DDG said:

Once again, this is assuming a Judeo-Christian frame of reference. There are plenty of other alternatives to God, no God, or maybe God. What about belief in the Goddess, or Mother Earth? What about belief in nature spirits existing in all living things? What about belief that we are all Gods? What about belief in a pantheon of greater and lesser Gods? What about belief that God is not a being, but a higher state of consciousness? What about believing that God is a process – creation, evolution and all that flows from it? Only in the context of Christianity is God an either/or proposition.

I think particularly in Great Debates on religious issues, it’s important to try to step out of that Christian frame of reference and look at the other possibilities. I’m really tired of threads in which it is assumed that the goal of all religions is for their followers to get to heaven.

The second thing that this thread demonstrates is an increasing tendency to want to parent the entire world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with allowing parents to make choices for their children. That is in fact one of the major jobs of parents. In another thread, parents are taken to task for piercing their babies’ ears, because the babies can’t consent. No, babies can’t consent to ear piercing, or religious rituals, or being strapped into a car seat. That’s why we allow the parents to make those choices for them. And unless the parents are endangering their children or breaking the law, they should be allowed to raise their children as they fit. That includes teaching them whatever moral values and religious ideas that the parents think are appropriate. Cultural and religious diversity is a good thing. It makes the world a more interesting place. The more freedom we give parents to make choices for their children, the more diverse and fascinating the world will be.

42

Oddly enough, we went into this on the last few pages of the most recent circumcision thread.

Although I agree parents need to teach their children- they must not teach their children to HATE. Taking them to church & Sunday school is fine, but to the KKK rally is not. Of course, if you’re a sicko that belongs to a religion that hates, well, then, “Houston, we have a problem”.

This is one reason why I am so much in favor of ALL kids going to public school. That way, they can see the other side, get another viewpoint from another set of teachers. And, although our public school teachers may not all be the greatest around- I do not know of many American public schools where kids are taught hatred & intolerance. I can’t say the same about some religious schools; the so-called “muslim schools” which teach dudes only the Koran & to hate America being a good recent example. But I imagine there are some small “Christian” schools that are pretty bad also.

43

I’m a catholic. I was raised to believe that he who believes in God, follows His commandments, and eats of His flesh and blood, will have eternal salvation. There is no room for ambivalence. So given that I believe that, it is my moral duty to raise my children so that they, too, will enjoy eternal salvation. Indeed, it would be my greatest failure as a parent were my children to turn away from God.

You say it is my moral duty to let them comparison shop for a religion like they’d pick a restaurant? Uh, no. Because, see, if you put a candy bar next to a spear of broccoli in front of a kid and asked him to choose, 9 out of 10 would choose the candy bar. Obviously the broccoli is BETTER for them, but a child is too young to understand that what is best for their body may not be the thing that appeals to them the most. Along the same lines, a child may not understand that what is best for his SOUL may not be the thing that appeals to him most. And until he IS old enough to understand the difference between the two, I will make the choice for him.

44

Um, no, actually it wasn’t. Just because I capitalized “God” doesn’t automatically make it the Judeo-Christian God; that’s your assumption.

Nope, sorry.

Let’s ask Islam. Does God exist? Yes.
http://www.thetruereligion.org/god.htm

Let’s ask Buddhism. Does God exist? No.
http://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm

Let’s ask Hinduism. Does God exist? Yes.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/8424/hindulit.html

Let’s ask Confucianism. Does God exist? No.
http://religion-cults.com/Eastern/Confucianism/confuci.htm

Every religion you can name addresses the issue of whether God exists, and if so, what form He takes. That’s what makes it a “religion”, as opposed to a “political theory”.

I can’t think of a religion that doesn’t concern itself in a big way with what happens to you after you die. That’s what distinguishes a “religion” from a “political theory”. Even Confucianism, for all its lack of specific teachings about a “Heaven” or a “Hell”, still strongly emphasizes ancestor worship, which is just another way of saying that you will live forever, but in the memories of your descendants, not safely esconced behind Pearly Gates.

45

Judaism.

Yes, but this is not the same thing as what you said in your original post, which was that the only choices were “yes”, “no” and “maybe”. Did you read my list of possible options for God? Including the one about many gods existing? The belief system of the Hmong people of Laos may include “spirits”, but it does not fit into your “yes”, “no”, “maybe” schema.

46

I agree. And I wouldn’t fool myself by denying that it is interfering with their right to make their own decisions later in life. Of course the way children are raised affects their decision-making skills. I would admit that I was starting them off with a bias. In my case, a bias against religion, or at least a distrust of it.

My sister and I have gone around about this. She always said that she would raise her son in her church, and then not interfere if he later rejected it. I maintain that it is a rare person who can critically examine the religion they are raised in. I did, and I rejected it, and I’m very happy that I did. But it was not easy at first. I was raised in it, it was all I knew.

It’s natural for parents to teach their children what they themselves believe. The problem is that only a tiny fraction of the world’s people have ever really thought about what they believe, and consequently most people just don’t have the qualifications for the monumental job of raising children. Most people reproduce, but it seems to me that most don’t realize the responsibility of being a parent. I know very few parents that I think are really good ones, and I’ll be quick to admit that it’s too big a job for me.

My sister’s son, BTW, is now a hell-raising, big pick-up truck driving, beer drinking, gun-totin’, misogynistic, crude, ill-mannered young man. But it’s okay; he’s still a Christian, and he’ll fight anyone who isn’t.

47

If someone truly believes in their faith - what choice do they have but to teach their children the same things that have brought them peace, happiness, etc. As adults, we are able to view other belief systems from a more objective point of view and can more clearly choose what we hold to be right. How else can we raise children than to teach them what we believe to be right? Like others have said, we don’t let children take their pick of bottles to drink from or what foods to eat. We use our knowledge to direct their paths.

If you told a child who is running towards a busy street to stop, you shouldn’t have to explain it at that moment. Instruct now, and exaplain later. Religion is the same, (first of all be damn sure you are right lest you harm [yourself and] your children.) If you hold to a faith pass it on.

I come from a Christian perspective, and I believe that to be true and the best method of looking at things. However, just as I may have been searching before being Christian one should be critical of what you believe and look for reasons to believe. Not that I would likely denounce Christianity, but if by some revelation I find that to be false I should. Rather than a mind that holds all truths relative, I think we should hold fast to what we believe, but be prepared to defend it and to admit its faults if necessary. Hence, children should be educated in a culture/belief system but not indoctrinated or brainwashed.

48

**

Is this lack of parenting skills something new to human history? Because it seems to me that humans have been very successful in raising children for the past several thousand years. Do you have any evidence that shows most parents are incapable of being good parents?

Marc

49

It seems to me that this is a moot point. If it isn’t moral to teach your child about your religion, is it moral to teach him about your morals?

The thing is, not everyone agrees about stealing or lying. There are a number of people who think that there is no right or wrong. Are we stepping on their toes when we teach our kids that stealing is wrong? Should we present to our kids the idea that maybe stealing isn’t wrong, that maybe there is nothing wrong?

And how do we avoid teaching our children that our religion is right? Unless my kid thinks I’m stupid, he’ll probably get the idea that I think my religion is right. Should I just never practice it around him? But won’t that lead to telling him that atheism is the correct way? Maybe instead equal time for all religions. I could take my kid to a synagogue, a Catholic church, a Baptist church, a mosque, a witches’ circle, a satanic sacraficial ritual (well, who am I to say that the satanists are wrong?)?

It seems to me that if you follow a religion that claims to be the one religion that is right (including atheism), and yet you don’t teach your child that that is the right religion, then you don’t think it’s right, and therefore why are you following it?

50

Well, no, I don’t. It’s just my impression. I have no parenting skills myself, so I don’t mean to be critical, and I don’t mean to say that people are all morons. It just seems to me that a lot of problems (not all) that a lot of people have are the result of lazy, lackadaisical, uninvolved, or misguided parenting. I don’t blame parents; I’ve admitted that it’s too big a job for me.

An example might be education. I’ve been teaching for 13 years now, and the students that I see succeed in school are usually the ones whose parents also succeeded in school. They take school seriously, maybe too seriously sometimes, and I’m presuming that they learned their values from their parents. The academic failures are usually from families that don’t value education so much. My own parents, whom I love more than I can say, were in this group, and as a result I didn’t do so well in school, and didn’t even consider college until several years later, when my values had changed. (I did great as a university student, though my father thought it was a waste of time.)

I try to be a good teacher, to motivate students and encourage them. But I know that in many cases, it’s a lost cause. If the parents haven’t taught a kid good study habits, it isn’t likely that I’ll be able to. I sometimes wonder where some students picked up their barnyard manners, until I meet their parents. Then it all makes sense. The respectful, confident students tend to come from respectful, confident parents, and these seem somewhat rare to me. There are exceptions to these generalizations, of course.

I won’t criticize my parents for my upbringing–they did what they could, and I owe them plenty. But if I had been taught to value education more, I might have been spared some pretty unpleasant years. They did teach me religion, with the best of intentions, but it caused me nothing but misery, fear, guilt, worry and maladjustment. Not until I ditched it did I experience a moment of happiness.

About the historical success of human parenting, I tend to disagree, but I don’t have evidence for that either. Maybe I’ve read too much history that focused on the ignorance, violence, bigotry, and greed of people, and not enough about the goodness.

In any case, I didn’t mean to offend. I have tremendous respect for parents and the job they do. The fact that I think most people aren’t very good at it reflects the difficulty of the job, not the incompetence of the people who don’t do it well.

51

I’m not even going to get STARTED on PunditLisa’s response. I’d hate to have to deal with her children. I can’t stand it when parents teach their children to blindly ACCEPT what they’re told, and not to question. Isn’t the educational process about questioning?

Anyway.

I was raised in a home leaning towards the christian faith. My parents do believe in god, and will refer to more bland spiritual matters from time to time, such as guardian angels and the like. I am an athist/agnostic and, as a child, I saw religious stories and tales in more of a “tradition” light than that of a deep truth. Whenever I asked my mother why we didn’t go to church like my friend Sara did (I had the idea that our families both believed in a specific “god”) she would reply “your father and I haven’t found a church that agrees with what we believe, and Sara’s parents have” and that’s how I learned about denominations. I think it’s important to note, however, that she never told me what I believed nor did she imply that Sara believed what her parents did… she only made me aware of her own beliefs and never implied that they had anything to do with what I believed.

In my opinion, this is the best way in which to raise a child. Of course, if a child grows up in a religious home, they are going to be exposed to religion. What are religious parents supposed to do, hide the christmas trees and the cross necklaces? That’s absurd. With me, I was exposed- but in a very gentle manner. I feel that I’ve been given all the autonomy in the world to choose for myself despite having religious parents, and that if I ever have children I will do the exact same thing.

52

Oops, I wasn’t finished. I wanted to go on to say that though I realize that parenting is an enormous job, I think that it is unjustifiable for parents to raise children to hold beliefs that the parents themselves have never examined and cannot defend. That’s why I say that so many parents aren’t really qualified to be parents. I’m sure many people have examined their faith before raising their children in it, but most religious people that I know have not. When asked why they believe as they do, most reply that it’s because they’ve always just believed that way, or they were raised to believe that way. They really don’t know.

I don’t know many religious people who have thought very much about their religion; most of them just accepted it from their parents, and their kids will just accept it from them. For the many exceptions who have applied some critical thinking to their beliefs before teaching them to their children, I have no criticism. It is perfectly natural to “indoctrinate” your children. I just think that parents have a responsibility to do all they can to be sure that their indoctrination will help their children, not handicap them.

53

After signing off last night I remembered another thing we stress with our kids. We require that they acknowledge that different people can make different choices about things than us, and that that does not necessarily make them better or worse than us. Those choices may not be right for US, but we are unable to say what is the right choice for someone else.

Our kids have asked questions like, “Why does this family go to xyz church?” Or “Why do they pray before meals?” And our response is that different people have the right to make different rules in their homes and for their families. When we go to their homes and interact with them we respect their rights to make such decisions, the same way we expect them to respect our right to decide what is best for our family.

Works for us.