Is Israel acting like 1930s Germany?

Great Debates
21

Johnny, while Israel has a highly vocal far-Right (which is similar in may ways to it’s American counterpart) it also has a prominant and active Left. The large and successful Peace Now organization, obviously patterned after the Vietnam-era peace movements, is a good example. Without its efforts , the peace process would probably never had started.

Israel is a democratic society, containing a broad spectrum of political beliefs. Yes there are those who believe that they are always right; but there are many who always claim that Israel is to blame. Just like the U.S., you’re liable to find an Israeli Jew with just about any political opinion you can imagine (well, short of White Supremacy). Israel is an intensely self-critical country, and I cannot think of a single move done by the Israeli government in recent years that recieved unanimous support.

Another thing Israelis tend to do, however, is to come together in times of crisis. It’s a quality I’m rather proud of.

BTW, the person you heard on the radioi was probably just a right-wing crank. They’re not that uncommon.

22

Is Israel acting like 1930s Germany?

Hell, if you believe the Old Testament to be a historical account, Isreael was acting downright genocidal as far back as 3000 years ago (c.f. the Book of Joshua, and Joshua 10:40 in particular).

23

Speaking as someone who knows some of the top dogs in Shalom Achshav, (Peace Now, for all the goyim), although they’re truly lovely people, their idealism has blinded them to the reality of the situation. Their adult children are Right-Wing.

24

Frankly, I agree with you, but I’m trying to stay objective.

Anyway, I dislike radicals of almost any color.

Why “almost”? Because sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand and state “here you shall not pass”. You hope you don’t reach that line but when you do… you do what you must.

Sorry I’m rambling. I’m drunk and homesick and I have no right being 6000 miles from home.

25

Alessan, Shalom Haver!

I hope you are soon abel to hear some good news from home, and when you do return, it’s not for active duty, but for Family reunion.

26

Look, the Isrealis have hardly been the poster boys of tolerance, true, but comparing them to the NAZIS?!? That’s sick. In this time & place I would place the blame 90% Palestinian & 10% Isreali. The Isrealis were (reluctantly, true) willing to give up to Arafat almost EVERYTHING he asked for- except the one thing he knew they would never give up- their Holy City, and that’s just what he demanded. Then, he started riling his people up, got his police mostly out of the way, and then ordered a work stoppage- which has always resulted in riots. SURPRIZE!! Riots.

27

Johnny said:

Of course, that’s not what you did, is it? You essentially compared them to the Nazis. There is a huge difference between asking, “Don’t you think the Israelis might be somewhat at fault here?” and asking, “Is Israel acting like 1930s Germany?”

28

Please note that there are very different situations being lumped together here.

There are Arab (or Palestinian) Israelis, who have Israeli citizenship, who did not flee Israel in 1948 (or whose parents didn’t flee). These people are Israeli citizens and have full rights under Israeli law as any citizen. I grant you that these right in law are not always rights in practice, but there’s no country on earth (certainly not the U.S.) where there is true racial equality. However, in Israel, as in the U.S., acts of discrimination are illegal. When brought to the courts, they are rectified.

There are then Palestinians, those who fled Israel in 1948, those who did NOT want Israeli citizenship, those whose leaders pledged to “push all the Jews into sea” and to wage war until all of the territory of Israel is under Arab control. These are the people who became refugees and who have not been accorded “equal rights” with Israeli citizens.

Those rights are not the same as rights accorded U.S. citizens in the U.S. For example, under Israeli law, certain rights can be suspended in national interests (like, a suspected terrorist bomber can be detained without the need for search warrants, etc.)

The U.S. does not accord “equal rights” to Cuban citizens living in Cuba, nor to Iranian citizens living in Iran. The Palestinian refugees are displaced, they are not citizens of Israel and not residents of Israel, either. (This is a fine legal point; they are mostly living on land that was occupied by Israel; if they admit to being Israeli residents, they will be acknowledging that Israel has sovereignty over the territory on which they live, and they don’t admit that.)

So, let’s please keep distinctions in place.

Israeli citizens, whether Jew or Moslem or Christian, whether Arab or whatever ethnicity, are all accorded equal rights under Israeli law. Period.

Non-citizens and non-residents, such as the Palestinians, the Iraqis, the Australians, are not within Israeli jurisdiction and therefore Israel can neither deny or accord them any rights whatsoever.

Thus, when you ask the question in comparing to the 1930s, the answer is a resounding NO. The Jews in 1930s Germany were Germany citizens, being mistreated and discriminated against by their government. The Arab Israelis today are NOT being mistreated or discriminated against by their government. The Palesinian Arabs today are NOT being mistreated or discriminated against by their government.

The Israeli government is treating the Palestinian Arabs as potential enemies and threats to Israeli peace and security, of course, but that’s a very different picture. That’s an outside “nation” (or would-be nation) whose leaders want to wage war on Israel.

29

CKDextHavn, I wasn’t going to post here again because I figured people were already pissed off at me enough. I know next to nothing about Israel, and I was thinking of that old propaganda poster and a comparison a friend of mine made several years ago. Added to that, I was just out of bed and hadn’t had coffee yet (as I’ve mentioned in other threads, I’m a little weird before caffeine) plus I don’t believe in “political correctness” anyway. Surely it was not my intention to offend.

I was just going to let this thread die.

But then you posted, and I had to reply. Thank you for replying in such a civil manner. The American Media (“News Lite”) reports I’ve listened to do not go into detail about the differences between Israeli Palestinians and the others that you mentioned. Until I read Eve’s link and your reply, I thought Palestinians were Palestinians.

30

CKDext maybe is making things a bit too black & white here. From what I have read, being a palistinian citizen of Isreal is like being a Black male in certain areas of the USA. There is no 'offical" discrimination, but a lot of “ID card checking” and minor harrassment, much like we have “DWB” here- in certain areas. Sure, they could be better, but we ain’t perfect either.

On the other hand, most of the surrounding Middle eastern nations are dictatorships, or nearly so, so “civil rights” is hardly all the prevelant in most of that area.

31

Johnny LA,

I have been lurking and following this thread since you opened it. Regarding you last post, aimed at Dex, I applaud you.

Here in Great Debates, people often just disappear after someone demonstrates a flaw in thier reasoning. Or, the vanish when popular opinion in a thread turns against them.

It’s a rare and valuable poster who can not only admit an error, but come back and show appreciation to those that helped him understand where he was wrong.

My applause and admiration.

32

Daniel, while there is (as I think I said) some unfortunate discrimination in practice, there is no discrimination under the law. That is, Israel is neither better nor worse than the U.S. in terms of individual people behaving badly.

However, that is by no means the government-sanctioned discrimination of Nazi Germany. And that was the initial comparison being made.

And, as you say, the Arab Israelis have WAY more rights than their brethren in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.

33

In my limited knowledge of this subject, I think that the palestinians have brought a lot of this upon themselves. Before some palestinian goes balistic on me let me tell you why I think this.

Peace talks have broken down many times on the issue of who controls the holy places in Jerusalem. Last time the Palestinians held control, they destroyed many of the holy places of the Jews that weren’t also holy to them (I know there’s a lot of overlap but it’s not universal). The Jews have restrained from doing the same, but they refuse to give the Palestinians a chance to do any more damage. The Palestinians meanwhile will not tolerate Jewish control of their holy places. Neither side is entirely rational about this issue, but I certainly would have to agree that I wouldn’t want palestinians in charge of anything important to me. Because of all the overlap in Holy places there can be no equitable division of control. I think that the Israelis, by virtue of there restraining from destruction of Palestinian holy place, has earned the right to be in control. The Palestinians, because they refuse all offers of citizenship etc. from the Israelis and because they destroyed important stuff out of hatred, has earned nothing. Of course, Palestinians are still people and so deserve treatment as such. I just think that they have made it very hard for the world to treat them fairly.

Once again, a disclaimer, I know very little about this and am basing my ideas on my memories of newspaper articles I have read over the years and a skimming of a couple of threads.

34

Well… If I’m wrong, I’m wrong! The long post in the other thread explained the political situation better than I’ve ever heard it explained before. And Dex was kind enough, or perceptive enough, or both, to know I wasn’t just trying to stir up trouble; he answered seriously and clearly. I too, am in the fight against ignorance… especially when it’s my own.

35

This is just scary. You make it sound as if it was a bonus prize; “Not only can you become a citizen, call now and you don’t even have to do military service! You’ll be the envy of every jew! Operators are standing by!”.:rolleyes: More accurate would be to say that arabs are BANNED from military training, just as they are forbidden to carry firearms. Jews are not. That is not full citizenship.

However, in my opinion the isreali state is today acting a lot LESS like the nazis than they probably ever have before, considering how hard they’ve tried to displace the arab population in the past. Had the comparison been between Germany in the 30’s and Israel in the late 40’s, it would certainly be a valid one.

36

This may draw some interesting responses, but I have to give my opinion on this.
The US constitution says there should be no religion in government. (I am completely against the words “In God We Trust” on US $ bills). The state of Israel is a religiously based state. Which means it should not be a state supported by the US. Yet the US does. Economic and technical support from the US to Israel is what keeps the country afloat. I don’t have a personal antagonism towards Israel. However, I am not happy by the fact that my tax dollars finds their way to Israel. If Israel has a problem with the Palestinians, it is not my problem and I don’t want a single cent of my taxes to support their cause.
I travel all over the World for business, and I become a target for terrorists just because of the US affiliation to Israel. I don’t want it.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying that Israel today is the same as nazi Germany 1930’s, but in Israel, not being Jewish is undoubtedly a disadvantage. You deny it?

For someone who has to go to Cairo, Islamabad, Bombay, Colombo, Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta for the next two weeks, I really wish US and Israeli policy was clearly separated. I will let you know if I survive.

37

Perhaps it’s more accurate to say that it’s a disadvantage to be Muslim in Israel.

38

A common misconception is that the Palestinians are uniformly Muslim. Actually, many are Christian. United by a common enemy, the two are currently getting along - but there’s no reason to expect them not to eventually get around to each other’s throats.

BTW - I recommend Joe Sacco’s “Palestine,” a comic book based on his interviews with people , admitedly, only on one side of the issue.

39

Ted said:

Yeah. Those Palestinian “police officers” were firing BB guns at the Israeli army…

40

Eggs à la Ted misstates:

Actually, this is completely wrong. Since 1957, conscription has been in effect among both Druse and Circassians (at their request). Morever, many Bedouin join the IDF as careerists.

Now, George Habash probably wouldn’t be enrolled in the IDF if he showed up at a recruiting station. OTOH, I think that there may be reasons for that other than his being an Arab.