Is Israel acting like 1930s Germany?

Great Debates
1

I was doing the European trekking thing back in '82. I found a poster in a subway in Sweden that depicted an Israeli soldier bayonetting a baby and being compared to a Nazi. The writing was in Swedish, but it said something like “Condemn the Israeli massacres of the people!”

In the mid-to-late 1930s, Jews were oppressed in Germany. They were denied civil rights. They were forced to live in “ghettos”. They were second-class citizens. They were deported. They were killed.

Look at Israel today. Palestinians are denied civil rights. They are forced to live in their own communities. They are identified as “outsiders” in their own country. They are second-class citizens. I can understand why they’re angry.

To be sure, the Palestinians use violence. But what choice do they have? As second-class citizens they are denied the rights that non-Arab Israelis enjoy. How can they change policies if they are denied the means to change them peacefully. When Blacks were denied access in the United States (and in some cases they still are), violence broke out. Ditto South Africa. The Palestinians say, “We have to use violence! It’s all the Jews have left us!” The Jews say, “The Palestinians are using violence! Are we to stand by and let them break our laws?” Someone trows a rock. Someone shoots a gun. A crowd kills Israeli soldiers. Israeli helicopters attack the town. Violence begets violence.

I think that Palestinians and Israelis should take a step back. Just stop. The Israelis should look at their laws and policies. Compare them to what they went through when they were second-class citizens in pre-war Germany. I think the Israelis are treating the Palestinians the same way the Germans treated the Jews. I’m not saying that the Israelis should stop reacting to provocations. I’m saying that the two sides must agree to stop fighting. Just for a day. Then the next day, agree to stop fighting for that day. Let things calm down. And then make efforts to ensure that every resident of Israel, regardless of race or religion, is provided equal protection under the law.

Israelis will still hate Palestinians, and Palestinians will still hate Israelis. Here in the U.S. some people still hate Blacks. But what we have here, and what they should have in Israel, is rule-of-law.

2

[breathing heavily, in-and-out, in-and-out, to calm down]

I would direct you, Johnny, to the excellent thread in GQ about the Israeli/Palestinian question. Some good historical background and reasoned arguments on both side.

Now I have to go have a nice cup of tea.

3

whew. The answer: yes, Israel is acting EXACTLY like 1930’s Germany. Remember how the Jews used to kill as many of the poor Germans as they could? And how in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, those dirty hook-nosed bastards were determined to destroy the fabric of the Fatherland?

Poor Nazis only wanted peace, and those Christ Killing sons-of-bitches wouldn’t have anything to do with it–all they wanted to do was blow the Germans to pieces.

All snide, sarcastic remarks aside…

Forced? Not a chance. In '67, after Israel secured Jerusalem, all Palestinians were offered the choice of being full citizens, with full voting rights–but Draft-exempt (which many Israelis wish for). The vast majority turned up their noses at the prospect.

Also: I’m not too sure about the West Bank, but Gaza was built up by the Israelis. Schools, Public Works, Roads, Sanitation, everything a city would need to become part of a larger nation. It was torn to pieces by the Palestinians.

Guess who started whining about living in a ghetto then?

Aww, that’s sweet. Ask Santa Claus for this at Christmas.

It ain’t gonna happen. Maybe you’ve never really felt strongly enough about anything to kill or die for it, but these people do. You have no right to sit in your cushy upper-middle-class study, playing on your $1500 computer and pass judgement on a different culture which goes by standards completely alien to yours.

Tell you what. For Fall break, buy yourself a plane ticket. I could probably get my brother to put you up for a week in Jerusalem (that is, if his unit isn’t called up to start fighting). He will be more than happy to tell you how reality shattered his University Idealism. And show you where some of his friends–civilian friends, mind you–were killed for no reason.

Take a tour of Yad Va’Shem, the Holocaust museum. Look at the pictures of Concentration Camp victims. You know, the ones who were 65 lbs. right before being led to the gas chambers. Then you can take the famous “Palestinian Ghetto Tour” that everyone’s been raving about. Laugh at all the funny starving ragheads, yeah! Maybe, if you’re really lucky, you can join one of the many roving gangs that go around and beat Arabs to a bloody pulp!

Then, once you’ve seen what it’s like in reality instead of in books you got out of the Campus Library, come back here and tell me that Israel is acting like the Third Reich.

4

Yes it’s a perfect comparison. Remember when the Germans started working on setting up an independent Jewish state including half of Berlin and some of the Baltic coast? Remember when the Nazis gave the Jews guns and weapons to set up their police forces there?

5

Oh, I’m sorry. I guess that the Palestinians do have full civil rights under Israeli law. I guess that Palestinians aren’t second-class citizens. There is no prejudice against Palestinians byt the Israelis. By the answers to my question, I guess all Palestinians must be vicious thugs who blow up peace-loving Israelis just for the fun of it. The State of Israel is not to blame at all for the violence.

6

Johnny—once again, I suggest you go here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=41832

(as opposed to where everyone ELSE suggests you go).

7

First of all, I was just answering the question, which was obscene to begin with. Obviously you did not read the answer I gave. Secondly, it’s not prejudice as much as a defensive response to Palestinan hate.

And Israel is actually not even reacting like most modern-day states to internal problems, places such as Yugoslavia, Indonesia, and many an African country, where there have been all-out attempts to destroy ethnic groups, which is definitely not the case in Israel. On the contrary, it is often amazing how Israel has coped with constant attacks, with many mistakes, of course, with a good deal of force, but with a great measure of restraint not seen under this type of stress and hatred in other parts of the world.

Yes, the Palestinians should have their own land and state, and that’s what the Israel government and most Israeli people wanted until a few days ago. But a lack of patience and whatever internal political reasons that were involved led to a resurgence of violence that will not make it easier for Israel to show any more restraint or goodwill.

8

Of course, don’t let’s forget that no matter how many peace treaties are signed, there are MANY terrorist groups, like Hamas, who refuse to consider peace with Israel. Whenever peace seems one step closer than the day before, they say, “Fuck THAT!” and start a new campaign of terror.

Even if Arafat truly wants peace (which I’m not sure if he does), he has no control over the Palestinian people, or the militants.

9

Eve, thank you for the link. It goes into great detail about how the situation developed.

I think that the other posters are missing my point though, and I don’t have time at the moment to explain further.

10

The palestinians are the ones who choose to resolve this by violence. They cannot complain when they get it.

11

It don’t believe that Israeli doctrine involves driving the Palestinians into the sea. I do recall offers of land for peace by Israel. The Palestinians have gotten their land, but where is the peace that they promised?

12

Honestly, I have little sympathy for Israel’s actions in many cases. However, 1930s Germany? :rolleyes:

(note: wow, this thread took no time whatsoever in bringing up the Nazi argument; it was in the OP. Geez)

13

Clearly.

Johnny, it’s not politic to compare Jews to Nazis.
An awful lot of people in the world would shoot you without a second thought for it. Not to mention the fact that the comparisins you drew are mistaken. Now, I see that at least one person who responded to you has a brother living in Jerusalem. My guess is that he might have a slightly better feel for the situation than you. Obviously, his views might be biased, but as a rational human being in a debate, it’s your job to read the posts objectively and to make an effort to understand what they’re saying.
Now, then. Blessedwolf, for every radical Jew-hating Arab there’s a radical Arab-hating Jew. You know that. Groups like Hamas, while abhorrent, are not limited to the Palestinian side of the issue.

14

Mmm…I don’t think the ratio is quite 1:1 (now THAT looks like a fucked-up smiley if I ever saw one!)

Don’t get me wrong: I’d be the last person to say that there aren’t any radical Jews killing Arabs for no reason. But I’d guesstimate that the ratio of Arabs:Jews who would kill for racist reasons (being those other than immediate self-defense) is more like 3:1
The terrorism issue is more like 8:1. Jews don’t do terrorism. We’re just not as good at it. Give us the Military any day. If you’ve got an Israeli Jew, and he’s a Terrorist, then he’s an American living in Israel.

Well, TBH, I was a bit harsh at the end there. Not being quite objective.
But as for the OP, the only similarities between modern Israel and 1930s Germany is that there’s one group of people in power, and another who isn’t. YES, Palestinians are oppressed. But not to Nazi-esque proportions. More like 1970s American blacks. If the Black Panthers had been a larger, more violent, and more factionated group.

15

And now class, for tomorrow’s assignment in Making Up Numbers and Using Blanket Statements 101… :wink:

Though the point, I think, is well taken. It may be an issue of circumstance, though. Israel doesn’t really have too many good Palestinian targets to suicide-bomb, and they don’t have a military per se (this is, of course, excluding the actual nations around Israel and only talking about its internal issues).

16

Is that carved on Count Bernadotte’s gravestone?

17

:confused:

Who’s Count Bernadotte? I’ve never heard of 'im.

Now, now…I admitted that it was a guesstimate! Anyway, Absolutely everyone uses blanket statements.

Should I take that to mean that the Palestinians don’t have a military?

18

:mad::mad: ;j;j;j;j

:confused:

:wally :mad: :mad:

:):):):):):slight_smile:

19

That’s why I’m not in politics.

I remembered this propaganda poster that made the comparison. I’m sorry people are pissed off, but I don’t think either side is the “good guy” or the “bad guy”.

It’s sad to think that people are so blinded by their prejudices, that they won’t even consider the suggestion that “their side” would do anything wrong. (Incidentally, KPCC – carrier of National Public Radio-- had a caller on one of their shows who said the Palestinians didn’t have a right to exist.)

Okay, I’ll agree with this.

20

Johnny: sorry if I had come across as a little harsh, but having relatives who survived Auschwitz (and a few who didn’t), and having lived in Israel during the start of the Intifadah; I’ve seen people I knew die due to unprovoked violence (unprovoked on the small scale, that is), so it’s a rather touchy subject for me.

I hope that I didn’t give the impression that Israel is blameless in this whole situation, because that’s not how I feel.

But they have been showing more restraint this time around than I think they should. But that’s a post for another thread.