Is it inappropriate to encourage a person who has never used a handgun to learn how?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
I didn’t ask the question, but I was about to before the hamsters rebelled on me, so I’ll respond. I don’t think anyone is asking Antinor01 to defend or justify his/her position on guns. We’d just like to understand it.

I used to be terrified of dogs. Simply terrified. Their size didn’t matter; their temperament didn’t matter. Simple proximity to a canine was enough to make me quake with fear inside. This was not a rational response, or a healthy one; it was an illogical extrapoloation of the dangers presented by SOME dogs to ALL dogs. As such, asking me the provenance and specifics of the anxiety (why did a small dog bother me, when a cat of similar size did no such thing?) was reasonable. Similarly, many gun owners perceive the antipathy towards and anxiety about guns evinced by persons like Antinor01 to be based on irrational impulses and a lack of knowledge.
[/QUOTE]

Well, since you’re asking now consider my last reply irrelevent.

It is not fear, I have no fear of guns. I have handled them in the past and was a very good shot when I was younger. I am not anxious or unknowledgeable, I grew up in a family with a military tradition and had some exposure to them at home. I quite simply do not care for them and have no desire to be around them anymore. I have no problem with other people’s legal ownership of such items (I really don’t want to get into gun control legislation questions here!) but since it is my home, I choose to not have guns in my home. There are other things I choose to not have in my home also, such as marijuana. I wouldn’t allow that in my home even if it were legal.

That is not to say that I am incapable of defending myself in my own home, I simply choose to not do it with firearms.

42

[QUOTE=begbert2]
Myself, if I was in an environment with guns present, if I ever had to move or touch someone’s gun I’d do it very delicately, staying away from the business end, and then have a little chat with the owner about their blatant irresponsibility leaving their deadly weapon lying around unattended.

[/quote]

If you absolutely had to pick up a gun and didn’t know how to disable it, then it seems to me you’d be well-advised to ick it up by the business end (i.e., the barrel) rather than bring your fingers anywhere near the trigger.

43

[QUOTE=BrandonR]
I’m just curious as to why someone dislikes a simple machine to the point of not allowing them in the house.
[/QUOTE]

There’s a few machines I wouldn’t allow in my house, or only allow if locked up by me, starting with petrol lawnmowers, going via X-Boxes, via sharp swords and culminating in guns.
Doesn’t mean I don’t like guns, not at all (not like I loathe petrol mowers and X-Boxes), but I won’t have one loose in my house. For more-or-less the same reason as the sword. Accidents do happen, and I’d rather they happen somewhere else. Guests are free to lock them in the safe or go elsewhere for dinner.

44

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
And why in the name of Zeus son of Kronos son of Uranus would that be a bad thing?
[/QUOTE]

Umm, you may have misread what I wrote? I’m saying that’s why it wouldn’t be innapropriate to encourage them. Double negative. As in, I think it’s cool.

45

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Umm, you may have misread what I wrote? I’m saying that’s why it wouldn’t be innapropriate to encourage them. Double negative. As in, I think it’s cool.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I misread your quote. Damn double-negatives. When I am god-king of Earth they shall be banned on pain of being fed to voles. As a pacifist you shall, of course, be powerless to prevent the conquest. On the other hand, I’ll let you live, as, being a pacifist, you are someone I have no reason to fear. :wink: So it’s six of one, half a dozen of the other.

46

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Accidents do happen, and I’d rather they happen somewhere else. Guests are free to lock them in the safe or go elsewhere for dinner.
[/QUOTE]

Locking them in the safe actually seems contrary to your aversion to accidents. You’re causing guests to handle the weapons twice during the evening which seems like it would increase the risk of something dramatically. Ideally, the risk would be negligible either way assuming that they follow all the proper safety rules. Still, you’re promoting riskier behavior in the name of risk aversion.

47

whew I thought there might be flying monkeys involved. I got off easy.

48

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Ok, this is the argument that has just grown so tiresome. Guns don’t kill people…people kill people :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

I’ll ignore the rest of the hijack, but not a rolleyes.
Ignorance is not protection. Knowledge is power. Hiding from the estimated 200-300 million guns in the US (or just pretending they’ll never be near) is not going to make someone safe. Saying that you’ll not allow guns in your house is as unlikely to protect you as saying that your guns are always locked up (or that your kids can be trusted with them). “I won’t allow them in my home” sounds like a fear of the object rather than the person, but if they mean “I won’t let an armed person in my home”, that takes on a totally different meaning to me.

49

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
whew I thought there might be flying monkeys involved. I got off easy.
[/QUOTE]

In the first place, it’s genetically engineered winged flame-spewing gonad-eating venom-spitting undead ninja monkeys. With light-sabres.

In the second place, they will, of course, be involved. I’ve already told them not to bother with your house, though, as you’re a pacifist. It’s not likely that you’re going to DO anything useful in opposing my forces. I mean, you’re free to embark on a hunger strike, but that doesn’t do much against oppressors who admit up front that they’re evil.

(I actually came back into the thread to respodn to **Kalhoun ** again, but I see **Bobotheoptomist ** has already said basically what I planned, only better.)

50

[QUOTE=mlees]
I realise that you would probably not allow your spouse to own a gun, but let’s say the order was ignored once. You come home to find a handgun laying on the kitchen table, and the kids playing in the next room. Your spouse is not around. (Let’s say at work.)

Are you going to leave the gun laying on the table, or do you shut/lock the kitchen up until your spouse gets home?

I realise that you do not trust me with a gun. Do you trust yourself? Do you think you could learn how to properly check the safety catch, and unload a gun? I assume that in such an unusual situation (for you), that you would absolutely “pay attention” to what you were doing, and not shoot the kids through “carelessness”.
[/QUOTE]

My husband owns a bunch of guns. Maybe not a bunch…maybe four. They could not be accessed in under 15-20 minutes, I’d guess. In fact, it would probably be a helluva lot longer than that before anyone could get to them. I’ve shot a couple of them at the range. I shot a rifle, too. I bought one of the guns for my husband for his birthday or something. I would not do that today.

So, if Mr. K were that much of an imbicile and I had small children around and he left them alone and I stumbled upon this scenario…I would pick up the gun and put it out in the car or elsewhere secured (though I’d be tempted to leave it in the rain – just to make my point). You aren’t suggesting I’d need training to simply pick it up, do you? Because I’ve figured that out and I’ve mastered it (with no formal training!).

I’m reasonably sure that my husband would not leave a gun on the table if we had children. He had excellent training both from his dad and in the Marines. If he were that careless with firearms, we would no longer be living together.

In fact, an old boyfriend brought a gun into our home (after we had the discussion), and left it in his gym bag, on the floor, next to the door. We had 3 kids under 10 in the house.

I threw him out. It’s that kind of stupidity that ends in a premature obituary.

51

[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist]
“I won’t allow them in my home” sounds like a fear of the object rather than the person, but if they mean “I won’t let an armed person in my home”, that takes on a totally different meaning to me.
[/QUOTE]

For me there is no difference between the two. The only reasonable circumstance I can think of where a gun would have cause to be in my home is in the case of a police officer or an armed intruder. Either of those two things is a vanishingly small possibility.

Again, it is not fear. I am perfectly capable of handling a gun if I chose to. However I choose not to and there is no need for one to be in my home.

52

[QUOTE=Erasmus Darwin]
Locking them in the safe actually seems contrary to your aversion to accidents. You’re causing guests to handle the weapons twice during the evening which seems like it would increase the risk of something dramatically.
[/QUOTE]
You’re discounting the rest of the evening, where the contrast is between a gun/sword in a safe v.s. one out where it can be involved in an accident of some sort.
[QUOTE=Erasmus Darwin]
Ideally, the risk would be negligible either way assuming that they follow all the proper safety rules.
[/QUOTE]
What part of “accident” is unclear? Not that I have a fear of guns, far from it, I love shooting, and I don’t think they go off if you look at them funny, as some might, but…accidents do happen, especially around alcohol and the like. I don’t trust other people to always follow every safety rule then - I’ve seen enough SCAdians swinging sharp metal when I, were I similarly inebriated, wouldn’t trust myself to butter bread. I simply extrapolate the same mentality to gun safety.
[QUOTE=Erasmus Darwin]
Still, you’re promoting riskier behavior in the name of risk aversion.
[/QUOTE]
If a sober dude can’t lock his gun up without shooting his foot off, I don’t think I want him in my house, really. Same-same with taking it out - I don’t let my friends drive drunk, either.

53

[QUOTE=vetbridge]
But if you had an anti-tank missile. . .um, that’d be kinda cool. And imagine the look of surprise on the tank dude’s face!
[/QUOTE]

I know! I might join the NRA just to increase my chances of meeting someone who could get me one!

54

[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist]
I’ll ignore the rest of the hijack, but not a rolleyes.
Ignorance is not protection. Knowledge is power. Hiding from the estimated 200-300 million guns in the US (or just pretending they’ll never be near) is not going to make someone safe. Saying that you’ll not allow guns in your house is as unlikely to protect you as saying that your guns are always locked up (or that your kids can be trusted with them). “I won’t allow them in my home” sounds like a fear of the object rather than the person, but if they mean “I won’t let an armed person in my home”, that takes on a totally different meaning to me.
[/QUOTE]

As I said, they are in my house, and always locked up and we have no intention of using them for protection. I don’t see them protecting in the same numbers they’re harming loved ones. It’s not a risk I’m willing to take. I also have no intention of killing someone because they’re trying to take my stuff.

I’m not hiding from guns and I’m not afraid of them. I don’t like them. There’s a big difference.

55

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]

So, if Mr. K were that much of an imbicile and I had small children around and he left them alone and I stumbled upon this scenario…I would pick up the gun and put it out in the car or elsewhere secured (though I’d be tempted to leave it in the rain – just to make my point). You aren’t suggesting I’d need training to simply pick it up, do you? Because I’ve figured that out and I’ve mastered it (with no formal training!).
[/QUOTE]

No, no training just to pick it up.

I was merely attempting to ascertain if you were willing to actually touch the gun.

Now that I see that you are willing to touch one, it would seem to me that the next reasonable step is to learn how to render (or check) if the firearm was (made) safe. The movements are no more difficult than picking up and carry it out to the car are. Shouldn’t take more than ten minutes of instruction, depending on the firearm. Merely moving the weapon out of sight is only a half measure, IMO.

This way, not only do you get to carry the gun to the car (or leave it in the rain), but you can also make certain that the weapon won’t harm anybody. (Especially if you leave it outside on the back porch in the rain, where some kid might come along and find it, and put someones eye out. A Christmas Story reference.)

56

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
You’re discounting the rest of the evening, where the contrast is between a gun/sword in a safe v.s. one out where it can be involved in an accident of some sort.
[/QUOTE]

The rest of the evening did factor into my consideration. However, when you carry a gun, it goes into the holster and stays there. The potential risk for a gun sitting in a holster is going to be less than that for one that’s being handled, even if the holster period is significantly longer. It’s when it’s being handled that you maximize the chance that something-- a finger or a wayward holster strap – is going to apply pressure to the trigger and produce nasty results.

Well, alcohol’s a whole different situation. In that case, yes, securing the firearm while sober is clearly the best option.

However, in the absence of alcohol, it does sound like you’re grossly overestimating the risk of a firearm that’s quietly sitting in the holster.

I agree with you there – any negligent discharge is unacceptable. I just think that the odds of someone being able to safely lock up and later reholster his firearm are still lower than someone being able to safely have their gun do nothing while it sits in their holster all evening. Even so, any reasonably competent person should be able to handle both without incident.

57

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
Once Kim learns how to shoot a rifle and the basics of hunting safety, she will be more capable of providing for herself than she is now. Once she knows the basics of handgun use, she will be more capable of defending herself than she is now. Those are good things.
[/QUOTE]

I would love it if my husband would learn how to use a table saw. It would make him more capable of doing home improvement projects. However, he has absolutely no interest in learning how to use one. I’m not going to pressure him into it. He has his hobbies; I have mine. It’s not inappropriate for me to ask him if he wants to try out my hobbies, but I’d be a jerk if I insisted on it.

Exactly. I’m not scared of guns. I’m scared of certain irresponsible or dumb-ass gun owners.

58

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
Sure there is. An unloaded gun is no more dangerous than any other piece of metal of similar mass, but I know people who suffer from such an irrational fear of guns that mere proximity to one that was demonstratably unloaded would leave them terrified.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not unreasonable for someone who doesn’t know much about guns to be afraid of even an unloaded one, for a few reasons. Generally, it’s difficult to tell whether a gun is loaded or unloaded. Sure, you may have just demonstrated that the gun is not loaded, but to someone who doesn’t know guns, they have to trust that you know what you’re talking about. Many people have been shot with supposedly “unloaded” guns because there was a round in the chamber. Now, maybe you’ve got the slide back and just pulled the trigger a few times, but to someone without gun-specific knowledge, they don’t know that that proves anything.

There is a reason it’s considered impolite to point a firearm at someone, even if you have just demonstrated that it is not loaded. Simply, the risk of being wrong about whether a gun is loaded is high enough that some fear of guns by people who don’t know how to handle them is completely justified.

Consider snakes, or wild mushrooms. I know that, in general, a wild snake is unlikely to be venemous, and a wild mushroom unlikely to be poisonous. But, since I lack the knowledge to determine whether that’s actually the case, I stay away. That’s rational fear. Even if a friend of mine assures me that the snake is non-venomous, or the mushroom safe, I’m likely to remain very cautious, unless I know that the friend’s knowledge of that domain is excellent.

59

[QUOTE=Erasmus Darwin]

However, in the absence of alcohol…
[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry, the words I bolded, I know the meanings, but, together like that…I’m drawing a blank…

60

Regarding fear of guns as such, part of the problem is that it is not easy for a non-user to assess the state of a gun (is it loaded, is the safety catch engaged, does it even have a safety catch, etc). With, for example, a chainsaw, it’s pretty easy to tell if it is running, and if it isn’t, which bit to avoid to keep it in the non-running state; less so for your typical firearm.

Regarding the OP; spreading the word about a hobby / skill you find fun or useful is one thing; if the person has previously expressed a definite lack of interest in / opposition to learning to use a handgun, then it is inappropriate to keep bringing up the subject. The way the OP is phrased (“my insistence”) does suggest that Skald may be pushing a bit, although he hasn’t reported to us what Ms Skald’s opinion on the matter is.

JRB

ETA: err… what iamthewalrus(:3= said.