Is it inappropriate to encourage a person who has never used a handgun to learn how?

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=mlees]
No, no training just to pick it up.

I was merely attempting to ascertain if you were willing to actually touch the gun.

Now that I see that you are willing to touch one, it would seem to me that the next reasonable step is to learn how to render (or check) if the firearm was (made) safe. The movements are no more difficult than picking up and carry it out to the car are. Shouldn’t take more than ten minutes of instruction, depending on the firearm. Merely moving the weapon out of sight is only a half measure, IMO.

This way, not only do you get to carry the gun to the car (or leave it in the rain), but you can also make certain that the weapon won’t harm anybody. (Especially if you leave it outside on the back porch in the rain, where some kid might come along and find it, and put someones eye out. A Christmas Story reference.)
[/QUOTE]
I could learn to do a lot of things but the chances of me using those skills are so slim that it wouldn’t be worth my time. I don’t like guns. My husband’s interest in guns has all but disappeared now that his dad, uncle, and other gun buddies are gone. Most of my friends have no interest in guns and feel, as I do, that there is no threat to our safety that warrants having a gun at our quick disposal.

I would not leave a gun, loaded or unloaded, on the porch. I would find a safe way to permanently disable it. :wink:

62

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I could learn to do a lot of things but the chances of me using those skills are so slim that it wouldn’t be worth my time. I don’t like guns. My husband’s interest in guns has all but disappeared now that his dad, uncle, and other gun buddies are gone. Most of my friends have no interest in guns and feel, as I do, that there is no threat to our safety that warrants having a gun at our quick disposal.

I would not leave a gun, loaded or unloaded, on the porch. I would find a safe way to permanently disable it. :wink:
[/QUOTE]

You realise, of course, how I might be confused that “a safe way to permanently disable it” is “easier” or “faster” than unloading the darn thing?

I am also having a hard time imagining a “safe way” to permanently disable a gun that does not include unloading it…

I don’t expect (or insist) that you learn to love to shoot, or even how to shoot. You don’t need that skill-set just to unload one, and engage the safety switches. (Actually, heh, I wouldn’t insist anything at all, as it is your house.)

I just think that it is somewhat unreasonable that you would allow your husband to own a weapon, but then demand that you “just don’t need to know that stuff”, and have nuthin to do with it/them. I am glad it has never been a policy that came back to haunt you, but if you truly wish to treat guns responsibly, I think it’s something you oughtta know…

63

[QUOTE=mlees]
You realise, of course, how I might be confused that “a safe way to permanently disable it” is “easier” or “faster” than unloading the darn thing?

I am also having a hard time imagining a “safe way” to permanently disable a gun that does not include unloading it…

I don’t expect (or insist) that you learn to love to shoot, or even how to shoot. You don’t need that skill-set just to unload one, and engage the safety switches. (Actually, heh, I wouldn’t insist anything at all, as it is your house.)

I just think that it is somewhat unreasonable that you would allow your husband to own a weapon, but then demand that you “just don’t need to know that stuff”, and have nuthin to do with it/them. I am glad it has never been a policy that came back to haunt you, but if you truly wish to treat guns responsibly, I think it’s something you oughtta know…
[/QUOTE]

I treat guns responsibly by not using them. I have absolutely no need whatsoever to learn a single thing about them other than the basic idea that they have a trigger on one end and flying bullets on the other. I can remove a gun from my kitchen table should my husband suddenly become interested in guns after 15 years of not thinking about them. If he was more enthusiastic about guns (and careless enough to leave them laying around) we would probably not be married anymore.

I don’t “allow” him to own anything. It’s up to me whether I want to subject myself to a situation. The situation of virtually non-existent guns suits me just fine.

64

[QUOTE=iamthewalrus(:3=]
It’s not unreasonable for someone who doesn’t know much about guns to be afraid of even an unloaded one, for a few reasons. . . .
Simply, the risk of being wrong about whether a gun is loaded is high enough that some fear of guns by people who don’t know how to handle them is completely justified.
[/quote]
To say it another way, the first rule I was taught about gun safety, and the rule that is certainly most intuitive, is to treat every gun as though it were loaded.

Chiding non-gun types for acting like every gun is loaded is, IMHO, a cheap shot that is at odds with the more important goal, which is safety. We ought to be applauding people who have no interest in guns for thinking every gun is loaded, as we’re all safer that way. I don’t know why folks are so upset that some people just don’t like guns. I’m a big dog guy, but I don’t feel it is my mission in life to convince dog haters/fearers that dogs are actually good.

Personally, I like guns and look forward to the day that the DC handgun ban is really, truly over, so I can buy the Sig P229 I’ve wanted for a long time. But thinking that everyone has an obligation to know how to handle guns is just not realistic, no more than thinking that everyone has an obligation to know how to drive a stickshift.

And the more I read of Skald’s reasons for wanting his SO to know how to handle guns, the more I think my golf analogy way up at the front of the thread is apt. I can think of many reasons why someone would benefit from playing golf every weekend (e.g., get more exercise, learn patience, learn the value of sportsmanship and honesty, get a rockin’ farmer’s tan, etc.) but if someone doesn’t want to, that’s their business and it is rude and inappropriate to try to convince them otherwise.

65

[QUOTE=burundi]
I would love it if my husband would learn how to use a table saw. It would make him more capable of doing home improvement projects. However, he has absolutely no interest in learning how to use one. I’m not going to pressure him into it. He has his hobbies; I have mine. It’s not inappropriate for me to ask him if he wants to try out my hobbies, but I’d be a jerk if I insisted on it.

[/quote]

I am not insisting that Kim learn how to use guns. I insisted that she learn how to safely handle and unload them, because we have some around. Once she got over her initial hesitance she was quite willing to learn shooting. But I’m not her teacher in that enterprise (for reasons left as as exercise for the class.)

66

[QUOTE=Ravenman]
And the more I read of Skald’s reasons for wanting his SO to know how to handle guns, the more I think my golf analogy way up at the front of the thread is apt. I can think of many reasons why someone would benefit from playing golf every weekend (e.g., get more exercise, learn patience, learn the value of sportsmanship and honesty, get a rockin’ farmer’s tan, etc.) but if someone doesn’t want to, that’s their business and it is rude and inappropriate to try to convince them otherwise.
[/QUOTE]

What the?

Look. I am not pressuring my wife to learn shooting. I WANT her to learn to shoot; I think she’ll be better off that if she learns to shoot; and now that she is learning to do so (from someone other than me), of her own volition, I am well satisfied. But I’m not the boss of her.

67

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I treat guns responsibly by not using them. I have absolutely no need whatsoever to learn a single thing about them other than the basic idea that they have a trigger on one end and flying bullets on the other. I can remove a gun from my kitchen table should my husband suddenly become interested in guns after 15 years of not thinking about them. If he was more enthusiastic about guns (and careless enough to leave them laying around) we would probably not be married anymore.

I don’t “allow” him to own anything. It’s up to me whether I want to subject myself to a situation. The situation of virtually non-existent guns suits me just fine.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, Kalhoun, you do “allow” him to own a gun. It’s your house too. If you really wanted to declare your home a gun-free-zone, you would have every right to discuss that with your partner.

The fact that you have (through your husband) guns in the home means that you “allow” it to be so. Maybe you “allow” it because you do not wish to force the issue, and don’t want to fight about something that never really has been an issue.

But the reality is, through your marriage and joint home ownership, the rest of us consider you to be a “gun owner”, even if not the registered gun user.

Refusing to learn the basics of gun safety seems like, to me, a form of denial, or sticking your head in the sand, or something.

Do you feel that not knowing how to unload the gun makes you a better person, morally speaking?

Do you feel that learning how to unload a gun, or engage the safety device that comes installed on them, makes you part of the “American Gun Culture”?

I do not, to regards to both questions above.

I don’t feel that learning how to unload and safety a gun is making a de facto statement of approval of guns, the “gun culture”, crime, or anything else, no more than learning how to remove stains out of a carpet means you approve of the dog pooping indoors, pet ownership, spaying/nuetering pets, etc. It just comes with the territory.

However, in the end, no one should force you to learn it. Encourage, or politely debate with you (sic), sure, but not force. I wish you peace. :slight_smile:

68

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
What the?

Look. I am not pressuring my wife to learn shooting. I WANT her to learn to shoot; I think she’ll be better off that if she learns to shoot; and now that she is learning to do so (from someone other than me), of her own volition, I am well satisfied. But I’m not the boss of her.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I stated that unclearly. I should have said that the reasons you gave on why you wanted your SO to learn to shoot are not terribly good reasons to encourage someone who isn’t interested in guns to learn about them, just like I have trivial reasons to try to encourage someone to golf.

I didn’t mean to imply you were pestering her into doing something she didn’t want to, and apologize for any misunderstanding.

69

[QUOTE=BrandonR]
I’m just curious as to why someone dislikes a simple machine to the point of not allowing them in the house. But if someone wants to completely delegate the responsibility of self defense to a third party, that’s their choice. I was just curious; perhaps they had a negative experience with a firearm which would be the reason for the ban.
[/QUOTE]

My chances of actually needing to defend myself are virtually nil. I have virtually no possessions worth taking, and no known enemies. If someone were intent on killing me for whatever reason, I don’t see how a gun would be much use since they could simply kill me by catching me off guard. The chances of me actually needing a gun are so slim that it’s not worth me blowing a few hundred bucks to buy one.

Furthermore, I have a distaste for guns. They may be “machines”, but they are machines specifically designed to kill with no other practical use. In an ideal world, no guns would exist. Of course, we don’t live in an ideal world but I think of not possessing a gun as an expression of this ideal.

70

[QUOTE=mlees]
Yes, Kalhoun, you do “allow” him to own a gun. It’s your house too. If you really wanted to declare your home a gun-free-zone, you would have every right to discuss that with your partner.
[/quote]
I came into the relationship knowing that he has guns. If it were a bigger issue in his daily life, I would not have put myself in the position of being around guns all the time. I feel that strongly about Very Enthusiastic Gun Ownership that I would probably forego the relationship. But the guns haven’t been out of the safe in at least 10 years and haven’t been fired in at least 15-18 years. The guns in our home are not an issue for me because they are not an issue for him. Indeed I would have the right to discuss the matter with him, but since it is virtually a gun-free zone, I don’t feel the need.

Definitely the latter.

Ah! But if only everyone owned guns like I own guns!!

I’ve got the best form of gun safety there is. I’m not interested and I don’t use them. It’s not a matter of refusal. It’s the lack of desire to be a gun user. I’ve learned it and forgot it because it’s not important to me.

No, it simply means I’m not interested in learning about or using guns. The reason for my disinterest runs from the fact that they do nothing to enhance my life or safety. I am thoroughly baffled by this world of danger that requires guns in order to navigate through it. I don’t see it.

No, as I said, I’ve used a gun in the past. It’s not information I’ll retain because it’s unnecessary and uninteresting.

Even if my husband was an Acceptably Enthusiastic Gun Owner (for my lifestyle), that’s his thing; not mine. I have no need to ever go through the rudiments of gun safety again.

I agree with the debate, but once the suggestion isn’t taken, encouragement is a step too far in my book. Peace back at ya!

71

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
I am not insisting that Kim learn how to use guns. I insisted that she learn how to safely handle and unload them, because we have some around. Once she got over her initial hesitance she was quite willing to learn shooting. But I’m not her teacher in that enterprise (for reasons left as as exercise for the class.)
[/QUOTE]

Erm…

Why is insisting that she learn to handle and unload it substantially different in a “the boss of her” way than insisting that she learn to shoot?

*Encouraging * her to learn *anything * is great. *Insisting * on it is not.

I personally wouldn’t have a gun in my house that I didn’t know how to handle, but I’m not especially gun-averse. If I lived with someone who was averse to handling the gun, I wouldn’t insist that they learn anyway, I’d simply keep it locked up when it wasn’t on my person. My gun is, after all, *my * responsibility.

72

[QUOTE=DianaG]
Erm…

Why is insisting that she learn to handle and unload it substantially different in a “the boss of her” way than insisting that she learn to shoot?

[/quote]

Here’s how the conversation went.

“Kimmy, just in case I ever have a heart attack while I have the guns out, you should know how handle and unload them. Okay?”

“Are you sure it’s safe?”

“Hell, yeah, it’s safe.”

“Okay.”

“Oh, do you want to learn you how to shoot sometime?”

“As long as it’s someone other than you teaching me. That way I can complain about the teacher being a condescending bastard without causing a fight.”

“Okay.”

73

So we’re just using a very, very loose definition of “insist” then? Okey dokey. :slight_smile:

74

Sounds more like a suggestion than insisting that she learn it. I mean, she could have just as easily said that she’d let the police take care of the guns when they take you to the hospital and that’d be that! :slight_smile:

75

[QUOTE=DianaG]
So we’re just using a very, very loose definition of “insist” then? Okey dokey. :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

I was tempted to insist, but of course I couldn’t because she agreed too easily.

I do agree that, had I insisted, I could have easily slipped into being inappopriate in how I do so. Because of our age issue and a few other matters, I am sensitive to issues of being too bossy with her.

76

[QUOTE=BrandonR]
I’m just curious as to why someone dislikes a simple machine to the point of not allowing them in the house. But if someone wants to completely delegate the responsibility of self defense to a third party, that’s their choice. I was just curious; perhaps they had a negative experience with a firearm which would be the reason for the ban.
[/QUOTE]

Here in the UK we dislike a simple killing machine to the point of not allowing them in society.
We delegate the responsibility of self defense to the police (the vast majority of whom are not armed either).
Our society’s negative experience was that we had a school shooting (and we don’t want another one).

77

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
As I said, they are in my house, and always locked up and we have no intention of using them for protection. I don’t see them protecting in the same numbers they’re harming loved ones. It’s not a risk I’m willing to take. I also have no intention of killing someone because they’re trying to take my stuff.

I’m not hiding from guns and I’m not afraid of them. I don’t like them. There’s a big difference.
[/QUOTE]
So obviously I wasn’t talking about you in the specific instance of not allowing them in the home. :rolleyes:
Remember this?
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I personally know people who are afraid to be in a house with a loaded gun, let alone handle one.
[/QUOTE]
Yet it seems to me that you are hiding from guns, and you certainly sound afraid of them. Your posts go back and forth between “I’ve used guns and just have no interest in them”, to condescending “I am thoroughly baffled by this world of danger that requires guns in order to navigate through it. I don’t see it”, to comparing guns to dogs “I would no sooner ask someone to learn to handle a gun than I’d invite a dog-fearin’ guest over without locking up my hypothetical dog.” (not a “gun fearing person”, you may notice)

Now I’m not saying guns are not dangerous, but they are far more dangerous in the hands of someone who doesn’t know anything about them than someone who does. And they’re nowhere near as dangerous as the average person’s daily life.

And please remember this all started because I questioned the people who are so terrified of guns that they wouldn’t allow one in the house, not Kalhoun herself.

And while I’m on my soapbox, I’ll drop the “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” if you drop the “gun owners are soooooo afraid of the boogie man that they have to have vicious killing devices along with their blankies” crap. Some people are so afraid of life that they use a seat belt, too.

78

[QUOTE=glee]
Here in the UK we dislike a simple killing machine to the point of not allowing them in society.
We delegate the responsibility of self defense to the police (the vast majority of whom are not armed either).
Our society’s negative experience was that we had a school shooting (and we don’t want another one).
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you can speak for an entire culture like that.

79

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I don’t think you can speak for an entire culture like that.
[/QUOTE]

Sure he can. The Brits have condescension towards the colonials down to an art form.

80

[QUOTE=Punintentional]
Does this read like satire to anyone else??
Or am i just Australian?
[/QUOTE]
It’s just the usual case of people getting hardons by taking about guns.