Is it legal to require art students to photograph themselves nude?

[tim314]

@pseudotriton ruber ruber

What I’m asking is, if it’s primarily about thinking about art, then is the professor out of line?

Even if the class is about “thinking about art”, there are lots of other assignments the professor could have chosen that weren’t designed to deliberately cause the students to feel uncomfortable sexually. If he is going to choose such a topic, he should (1) mention this to the school administrators in advance to make sure it doesn’t violate the school’s sexual harrassment policy. (Maybe he has, I don’t know.) And (2) he should at the very least explain to the students what the actual purpose of the assignment is, so they don’t jump to the (I think very reasonable) conclusion that he’s just abusing his power to indulge his sexual fantasies.

I hope the OP lets us no whether any classroom discussion of the issues even sven listed ever occurs. I wouldn’t hold my breath.

[brossa]

I agree with even sven that this is potentially a very intriguing assignment which addresses a multitude of issues, some of which he listed.

Let’s go back and see what information we are actually given in the OP. First of all, this is a secondhand report by FlyingRamenMonster’s friend:

He instructed us to draw from a photo of ourselves and to bring the photo to class for him to look at before we started.

So, for the folks who believe that he is just trying to collect pervy snapshots of minors: IF the students are to draw from the photos, at what point does the prof get to keep or display the photo? Or even the finished work of art, for that matter?

From the sketchy info in the OP, it sounds like the prof has a history of pushing the comfort levels of his students - the tearing up of art bit for one. To briefly hijack, this sounds like a great idea to me; it touches on a few more excellent issues:
Is all ‘art’ good? Is it all worth preserving? What if a buyer purchased your work and then destroyed it in front of you? Even if the student’s drawing was excellent, what would its future be anyway? Used in a portfolio? Pinned to a dorm wall? Memorialized on mom and dad’s fridge forever?

At any rate, we aren’t given any context to the assignment.

scotandrsn said:
While these may e valid concepts to explore, the professor has chosen a completely inappropriate manner in which to introduce them. That is the problem under discussion

I would argue that we have no suggestion of that. For all we know, the assignment was preceeded by a week of in-depth investigation of just these issues. Presumably the class has been drawing from nude models before; these individuals are paid and protected by contracts because they are exposing themselves to a roomfull of strangers. How does drawing yourSELF nude, where you control the entirety of the experience, equate to this? You can take the photo in the basement with the blinds drawn, using a camera on auto-timer. You choose what the pose is and what is exposed/revealed. Presumably, you can then draw from the photo so you don’t even have to strip down to your skivvies again. And I must point out that nude =!= sexual. I think that the point of the assignment is to make the artist address those issues that even sven mentioned, in a very immediate and direct way - better than a semester’s worth of written assignments could.

I think that the photo obsession is a bit of a red herring - if you want the students to do a candid-style nude self-portrait, it’s probably going to have to be from a photo, unless you want them standing in front of a full-length mirror, leaning against the sink and holding a curling iron while they are drawing. And having them show the prof the photo beforehand ensures that everybody obeys the spirit of the assignment, rather than drawing their own head on top of Ann-Margaret’s body. And I have to repeat, where exactly in the OP does it say that the professor is keeping any of these NUDE PHOTOS!?!!eleven! that the students are supposed to be doing the drawings from?

This sounds like a fascinating assignment to me. It pushes so many buttons. But I don’t think that accusations of perversion and sexual harrassment are justified based on the info in the OP. It is possible that the prof is a pervert; but I suspect that he is actually trying to teach deeper lessons.

On preview:

tim314 said:
he should at the very least explain to the students what the actual purpose of the assignment is, so they don’t jump to the (I think very reasonable) conclusion that he’s just abusing his power to indulge his sexual fantasies.

He may have done this quite explicitly, but I guarantee you that some students would get hung up on the nudity=dirty, dirty sex aspect and flip out accordingly. Or he may be trying to teach the lesson more obliquely. It seems to me that you can lecture about the value of art-to-the-artist until the cows come home, but to tell someone to tear up their finished drawing really drives the point home.

[Guinastasia]

brossa-did you bother reading the comments from art majors who said that drawing from a photo is NOT a good technique?

[brossa]

Yes, I did. Is your opposition to the assignment based soley on the fact that drawing from a photo is considered “NOT a good technique?”

Hilarity N. Suze said:
So there might be a bona fide reason for the portrait itself but I can’t think of any reason at all to require that it be done from a photo, or for that matter to produce the photo. As she noted, it’s more of a challenge to work from a live model–at least more challenging from the point of view of actual technique.

Caricci said:
Oh, and I asked around here at work and was told “a good art school wouldn’t have you draw from a photo”. How true that is, I don’t now. I believe it’s not a common practice here though whether it’s a nude self-portrait or a still life. I vote for perv.

blace81 said:
While none of my college level teachers have asked me to draw directly from pictures (in figure drawing), some of the earlier classes suggested in as a “crutch” for mirrorless students when drawing themselves.

I would agree that I would want my money back if I paid for a figure drawing class or still-life class and all they had me do was draw from photos. To address HN Suze’s comment, I could argue that the challenge and lesson of this assignment comes from more than learning drawing technique. From blace81’s comment, it does seem reasonable to use a photo as a drawing aid if you don’t want to set up a series of mirrors to capture the image of yourself changing a lightbulb in the nude. The objections of others seems to be based on the premise that the prof is taking possession of the photos for his own gratification.

Look, I agree that if the prof is asking for nude photos for his personal use, that that is inappropriate and actionable. But I don’t see anything in the OP that suggests that that is the case.

Would you object to the assignment if there was no photo involved?

Amusing aside: I initially typed ‘still-life’ as ‘stiff-life’, but caught it on preview. Hmmm.

[Little_Nemo]

Some people will poke holes in any process that brings sexuality into a classroom, and teachers must learn to live with this constant bluenosed intimidation. Can you not see this?

And can you not see that you’re willfully refusing to admit the possibility that this assignment might have a sexual motive? To use an example I gave earlier, teachers in a music class also expect their students to express themselves creatively. Do you think a music teacher would be making a valid educational point if he told his students he wanted them to perform a concert in the nude? Would a creative writing teacher be okay if he told his students to take off their clothing in class in order to free their minds? Maybe a computer programming teacher could tell his students to show up naked in order to think outside the box?

The point is that these students are supposed to be learning how to be creative and to produce art, not to be the subject of art.

[even_sven]

@Little Nemo

The point is that these students are supposed to be learning how to be creative and to produce art, not to be the subject of art.

The artist is always the subject of their art. There really is no other way things can be.

[Phantom_Dennis]

I doubt very much the professor is a perv – there are much easier ways for him to procure images of naked, college-age women without possibly jeopardizing his career. I’m sure his intentions are well-meaning and I’d be very surprised if school administrators were not aware of the nature of this assignment (although it can’t hurt to find out). He’s probably a very innovative and challenging teacher, and I can understand what he’s trying to accomplish with this project.

But is the concept behind this assignment really such an important component to a figure drawing class that a professor is justified in taking the risks involved (alienating students, possibly exposing himself to sexual harassment charges)? I really doubt it. An artist can learn to draw the human body without ever needing to draw herself nude. That’s what the paid models are for, right?

If it were optional, I’d see no problem with the project, and I can see how some students would have no problem completing it. But right or wrong, our society is filled with people who are hung up on their body image, consider their bodies to be inherently sexual, and would feel highly uncomfortable completing such a project. I don’t think it’s the province of a figure drawing instructor to force students to confront this aspect of their psychology based on the (possibly mistaken) assumption that it might benefit the student.

[scotandrsn]

@even sven

The assignment was “draw yourself in a swimsuit.”

You’ve created an alternate reality with this swimsuit deal.

@FlyingRamenMonster

<snip>

I’m pretty insulted… not only is drawing from a photo extremely unhelpful and takes a beginner level skill that we’ve long since surpassed, but I, a young and pretty shy girl with no modelling background,am being instructed to take a naked photo of myself (“or,” he said, “you could put on your panties…”) and give it to my male teacher, then draw myself in large scale so the picture can be on display for the entire department.

That is the assignment. I see nothing about bathing suits.

Are any of the ideas you listed so important that the students’ technical progression must be slowed for this unnecessarily confrontational technique? The concepts can not be explored in any other way? Sounds dubious at best.

Not to mention that the professor has a responsibility to act in loco parentis to the minors in his class.

[scotandrsn]

@June

I doubt very much the professor is a perv – there are much easier ways for him to procure images of naked, college-age women without possibly jeopardizing his career.

There is a certain second-rate class of teacher that feels the concepts they are exploring are beyond any societal norms - like my co-worker who thought it would be a good idea to have his high school students read pornographic manga as an assignment. The students were not comfortable with it, told their parents, and he’s out of a job.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Little Nemo

And can you not see that you’re willfully refusing to admit the possibility that this assignment might have a sexual motive?

Not at all. I keep repeating that I don’t know enough about this particular assignemnt to judge the teacher’s intent here. I keep saying that maybe he’s a perv, though I’m not ready to send the guillotine blade down just yet.

As to willfulness: Why are you so willing to judge him so harshly on the basis of the sketchy information provided? If I were this guy’s chairman or dean, I would assume that my faculty have their reasons for assigning what they do, and if I got a complaint like the OP’s I would ask him about this assignment. If I got answers that were anything like what Even Sven or I are suggesting are his answers, I would probably say it’s okay to do what he’s doing, even if I would choose another course of pedagogy myself.

Education isn’t always comfortable, and it’s rarely good when it’s completely consumer-driven. The professor might be providing a once-in-a-lifetime chance for these people to deal with their preconceived ideas about the human body, and art, and truth, and aesthetics, in the safe environment of the classroom, at the risk of a mere 13 weeks and 3 college credits. Where else will you be forced to confront these issues, ever, for so low a risk? This guy could be the teacher of the year.

Or he could be a perverted sex criminal preying on minors. The OP is asking if what he’s doing is legal. I keep saying “Maybe so.”

[Otara]

“I doubt very much the professor is a perv – there are much easier ways for him to procure images of naked, college-age women without possibly jeopardizing his career.”

You could say that about most voyeur related pictures though - part of the enjoyment is the obtaining of the picture from actual people and in this case using ones position to do so could easily qualify in that kind of area.

Otara

[Tristan]

brossa, even sven is a hot young female, who presumably won’t mind sending me pics of herself nude.

Candid pics, if you please. Heheheh…

[aspen31]

this person has a choice of who to study art under. if she doesn’t like this teacher or this school, she should go to another one. simple. she is not being forced to do this assignment ultimately. i cannot accept the perv statement till i’d met the teacher and assessed this for myself.

many great teachers or practitioner/teachers had very controversial methods. you might not find out till you’re actually there whether the course is being taught by a person who you want to learn from.

if my daughter came home with news of this assignment and she had a problem with it, i’d back her 100% in whatever remedy she thought appropriate and help her formulate her ideas on how to achieve a resolution. if she came home and told me about this and had no problem i’d accept that too.

rick

[garygnu]

I went to art school.
The way it’s posed in the OP, this is creepy and wrong, but I agree that more info is needed. “Real” art school or community art class.
I totally understand the pushing buttons/boundaries aspect of certain art classes. I fthis assignment was given at my school, students would A) instantly give the teacher an “avoid” rep. and B) All figure out a way to use said assignment to say “F You” to Mr. Teach.
A “real” art intsructor would not require a photo. Why? The method of completing this assignment is irrevelant unless it’s a pure “technique” class. Why would he need to compare the photo with the finished piece?
There was a way to present this assignment without coming off like a perv, and it seemed to me the OP objected to this aspect, rather than the assignment itself.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@garygnu

IA “real” art intsructor would not require a photo. Why? The method of completing this assignment is irrevelant unless it’s a pure “technique” class. Why would he need to compare the photo with the finished piece?
There was a way to present this assignment without coming off like a perv, and it seemed to me the OP objected to this aspect, rather than the assignment itself.

I can suggest (and have suggested) some reasons: to be sure the students were working from the actual image, and not some idealized mental image, of their bodies, to make sure they have some understanding and empathy with what a model feels like in the act of posing (i.e. to make it impossible to think of their “model” as an inert lump of flesh), to check the degree of idealization that goes into the drawing itself. There’s plenty of good practical reasons for requiring a photograph in the exercise.

Note that I did not write "good reasons for the instructor to stuff all the nude photos into his briefcase and whack off lasciviously to them in front of the whole class while cackling maniacally.’ Let’s try to stick to the arguments people are actually making here, okay?

[flight]

@garygnu

A “real” art intsructor would not require a photo. Why? The method of completing this assignment is irrevelant unless it’s a pure “technique” class. Why would he need to compare the photo with the finished piece?
There was a way to present this assignment without coming off like a perv, and it seemed to me the OP objected to this aspect, rather than the assignment itself.

When was it ever said that he was going to compare the photo to the finished piece? As I read the OP there was only one time the teacher saw the photo, when vetting the topic. There was no talk of comparing the finished product to the photo, nor was there any talk of him keeping the photo. Being as the OP had a problem with the practice you would think they would include those much more questionable parts if they had actually occurred. As the OP did not, I can only assume the teacher saw the images and either approved or disalowed them as the subject for the assignment.

[CC]

Excuse me, but before everyone goes off to the dean, the head of the department, the university president, the provost, the department of homeland security, etc, could someone suggest that this student meet with the instructor first and find out if there’s an alternative available? In my many years of teaching, I’ve had approximately four gazillion students come to me asking for clarification, extensions, alternative assignments, and all manner of other modifications for all manner of reasons, ranging from I’m an idiot to they’re idiots. The first step is that student should get very clear on what the assignment is, and make her objections known, discuss it with the instructor and see what the options are. She’s a university student, for chrise sake. She’s got to deal with some things herself.
Second, as someone said, don’t whimper, get smart. If you have to take a picture of yourself NUDE, do it. Lie down on your back, throw a towel over your breasts and take a picture from above the top of your head. That’s what you’ll see - the top of your head, maybe a little towel, and your toes. Or do one of the many other suggestions here. Point is, school is where you get an education. Get one.

[garygnu]

@flight

When was it ever said that he was going to compare the photo to the finished piece? As I read the OP there was only one time the teacher saw the photo, when vetting the topic.

Fine, fine, you’re right. I inferred the final comparison. However, how would a verbal or written description of the planned pose/subject be insufficient? We’re all doing it here.
The assignment itself certainly has artistic merit, and I wouldn’t object personally; only when combined with other elements do things get murky.
Before I keep arguing with people, much more information is needed:

1. Is this school a pure “Art School,” the art department of a larger university, a community art league, or something else?
2. What was the stated course description?
3. Did the student(s) expect such an assignment? Had it been assigned before?
4. Would anything but full nudity be graded lower for no other reason?
5. Is any other teacher teaching the same class?
6. What is the stated purpose of this assignment?
7. Will the photo be compared to the final product?
8. Will the photo be kept by the teacher for any length of time?
9. Does “minors” mean under 18?
10. Has anyone else in the class raised objections, either in class or in private?
11. Has the student raised issues with the teacher?

[handsomeharry]

@Sage Rat

My guess would be that requiring nude photos would be illegal, but given that the option to just wear a swimming outfit is there I doubt you could get any court to say anything but “Meh.”

Now, if the guy is actually abusive, treats his students demeaningly, or engages in sexual harrasment…

This surely sounds like sexual harrassment to me. I think that it would be comparable to a med school instructor asking his students to give said instructor a private parts exam. sure, he could rattle off a whole list of great reasons why, but, still, there’s something not quite right with the situation.
hh