Milossarian, nice post. I couldn’t expend the energy.
Simply because if he’s raising that argument with someone that opposes hunting, all kinds of irrelevant crap can be brought up. Ancestors slaughtered the Indians, wouldn’t let women vote, etc. It would not help his argument.
I don’t hunt, though I fish. I also consume meat and I’m familiar with the slaughtering process. I don’t raise animals for food. I leave that to others who have been raised with a different philosophy and to whom killing an animal doesn’t bother them.
It bothers me. I have no doubt that, in a pinch, if I have to, I can track and kill animals for food.
The morality of hunting? Well, it is considered a sport, the urge is often part of our genetic makeup, our mouths have teeth designed to rip and tear meat and vestigial fangs (eyeteeth) show that we were designed not just to scavage but to attack and bite into meat to hold it for the kill. Our digestive process can consume almost anything and, actually, we can eat most forms of life on the globe – though being ‘civilized’ we tend to keep to just a few.
It is known that we can eat most insects including scorpions (I saw a cooking show where the chef produced frozen scorpions, removed the sting, battered them up and cooked the nasty things), and most animals. (I knew a girl once who told me how the little boy next door, when she was young, showed his admiration of her by bringing her Bluejay sandwiches.)
Unless the critter is obviously thoroughly lethal, like some frogs, we will probably eat it. If the lethality is at one end, like in snakes, spiders and insects, we’ll probably eat them.
If a person is hunting to satisfy his/her hunting urge and enjoys it and does not abuse it, I do not consider it immoral. So long as they use their kill and don’t just slaughter for fun and leave the carcass to rot, I figure it’s fine. If a hunter goes out to kill and to kill and quickly and painlessly as possible, with weapons that give the animal a chance, that’s fine. However, if they go out to inflict pain and agony, to enjoy causing and watching an animal die a lingering death, that is not fine.
Good hunters who wound an animal track it and finish it off, bad hunters do not.
Now days I have mixed feelings about trophy hunters, unless they use the meat. Killing a buck because of his rack and leaving the meat to rot is no longer acceptable and, since trophy hunters mainly go after the biggest and the best, they tend to weaken the species in the long run.
I have a real big problem with people who consider non-hunters as weaklings and who ‘force’ their children into hunting by making fun of them if they decline.
I was not aware there were specific territories designated for humans and others designated for wildlife other than national and state parks (which are generally not the areas in question; it is typically illegal to hunt in parks). The reality is that to grow enough food to support the human population, we currently need a sizable amount of farmland. This abundance of readily available food out in the open attracts animals. (I was out to my parent’s house last weekend, and we had deer watching us play catch from the neighboring field.) To protect their livelihood and your food supply, farmers have to control the animal populations. Ask Scylla about his groundhogs… Building fences is not practical–some animals burrow, others (like deer) can jump 15-20 feet high.
I’ll make you a deal: We’ll cancel hunting if you go put Norplant in half of the does in Michigan.
Ready … GO!
pkbites:
Ummm . . . you may wanna let the bacteria know about this. They are older than mammals are (by several million years), can live in more environments, can easily kill us, outnumber us by several orders of magnitude, and will still be around long after we are extinct. Other than that, sure.
Hmmm . . . if you’re going to argue both sides, try and understand them both first. “Survival of the fittest” is really a fairly meaningless phrase both within the contraints of a discussion of evolution and concerning our relationship to other creatures.
Egads. Another time, another thread, my friend.
smug:
Then what exactly is this?
AFAIC, very few regs aren’t aware of my feelings on the treatment of animals, although I always concede the basically omnivorous nature of humans. I find hunting for food less onerous than factory farming. I find wasteful trophy hunting reprehensible. I find teenagers shooting groundhogs in the woods for fun repugnant. But, hey, I’m just one guy.
I appreciate all you giving me these reasons, not the few posters who seemed mad at me and seemed to imply I was ignorant.
For the population control argument, I always thought that nature usually works out these problems on its own over time and that hunters couldn’t kill enough deer to make a significant difference. But I guess i was wrong. Plus, hunters usually want to go for the strongest and healthiest animals which is detrimental. They should pick out the sick ones. But I don’t think most hunters are hunting for the good of the environment. They are doing it for themselves, and they use the fact that they are keeping the population in check as justification.
I seem to be arguing against hunting, even though you all have pointed out a number of good reasons for it.
Basically, i was just trying to hear sides of an argument so i could form an opinion.
Maybe i shouldn’t have asked “Is it moral to hunt?” I think it is amoral, as Oldscratch said. I just wanted to hear arguments on both sides.
I think the conclusion that I have reached is that there is a difference between grabbing a cheeseburger for lunch and shooting a deer and watching it twitch and blood run from its mouth and from the wound. I was wondering why anyone would enjoy an activity that involves the latter.
Yes, some people really like watching that and I was wondering why. It is not as if the person who eats the cheeseburger demanded to watch the cow be slaughtered.
So my opinion now is that hunting is probably necessary for some places where the deer would overrun and kill themselves off by starvation, but the people who think that this activity is fun are mostly sick scumbags.
They are needed however, just as the world needs loathsome scavengers. Doesn’t mean I have to like them.
Wring…got a chip on your shoulder?
As I sat here debating with myself whether I should even bother I re-read your post and the tone of it convinced me to respond.
Was the trespasser wrong. By all means he was. I apologize for his kind. But one bad apple doesn’t have to spoil the lot. As hunters we do not approve of anyone breaking the law in pursuit of game. There is a high degree of ethics involved in our chosen pursuit. When and when not to shoot, respecting the land, respecting our quarry and respecting the privilege to hunt on private land. I will allow that there are individuals with no respect for any of these things. They are the exception and majority of hunters will report them to the local authorities. If your local officer refused to respond to your report of trespasser perhaps you should follow the chain of command. Although smaller in Michigan are these hunter not required to wear a Backtag with a unique license number identifying that individual? Write that down and contact someone who will resolve this person’s trespassing habit.
Although it sounds like the answer would have been no, it was that hunter’s responsibility to knock on your door and request permission to hunt on your land. I have a standing privilege to hunt on a local farmer’s land where I grew up. I still stop every year and make sure that the permission to hunt still stands and I present him and his wife with a LARGE Christmas ham, which makes him very happy. This does not even begin to make for an equal trade. What he grants me is far more valuable than any ham.
Several weeks would be 2 weeks, right. So that leaves you a total of 50 weeks to enjoy the Outdoors outside of Deer Season. So how much do you contribute to the funding for the conservation and maintenance of those areas. Not anywhere near as much as Sportsmen and women do. Maybe we should introduce a bill refusing entry to any state owned lands unless you pay additional taxes on the things you buy and charge you a license to walk or bike through the County, State and National forests.
Hunters are the backbone of the conservation movement.
Yours odds of dying in a car accident are greater than being shot during deer season. Although Michigan is a little lax in regards to the Blaze Orange regulations. If you are in the woods without Blaze Orange on during deer season then you are an idiot. Most (I agree not all) hunters are aware of what they are shooting at and what is behind it. However Blaze Orange makes you more visible. At a distance you go from undetectable to unmissable.
You blame your ex brother-in-laws shooting instructor?? The instructor can not control what he did as an individual. That is an unfair characterization of the instructor. Odds are he/she taught your ex-brother-in-law the proper techniques and safeguards yet he chose to ignore them.
The people I hunt with know what is ethically expected of them or they will not hunt with me again.
And I still can’t believe the pompous tone of your post. I will summarily disregard your last paragraph and its inflammatory nature.
MILO: You Rock!! Great post, as usual.
Regarding the OP, the morality of hunting resides with the individual.
Turpentine:
Not sure how to take your last post?
I enjoy hunting yet I do feel a twinge of regret at the kill.
I know of no hunters that get their rocks off watching their quarry die. They are happy their hunt was successful and are watching to make sure the animal does in fact expire quickly and does not suddenly get up and run away. Do not confuse this with a morbid need to watch an animal die.
Well, it’s pretty clear animals don’t hunt for the good of the environment either–they do it for food… Yes, I agree that the hunter who shoots a deer “just to watch it bleed” is one sick individual, but I honestly think these types are fewer than you might imagine. I think most hunters probably experience “the thrill of the hunt”, but it’s closer to the exhilaration a linebacker would have closing in on a quarterback than the sick desperation of a serial killer closing in on his victim.
FTR, I have never had a shot at a deer, as our hunting trips are not particularly serious ones. If I do ever have one in my sights, I don’t think I’ll have too much of a problem pulling the trigger, but I wouldn’t take much joy in it (other than for actually succeeding for once).
Well, Turp, here’s where I’m coming from: I grew up on the edge of BLM land in New Mexico. Unlike folks who grew up in urban areas, we raised lots of animals, most of which were kept solely for eating purposes. Since childhood, I have helped hatch/birth, raise, feed, water, and kill everything from chickens to rabbits to turkeys to goats.
So, unlike many people who have voiced opinions in this thread, I have held an animal down, slit its throat, and let it bleed to death. You may argue that doing so is immoral. From my perspective, it’s just like harvesting a crop.
Further, I argue that you appreciate your food more when you really have to work for it, not just work for the money to buy it. City folks, insulated from the reality of killing animals to eat, are frankly naïve and inexperienced in this respect.
So, where did you grow up?
I grew up in a suburb, and witnessed my dad and my uncles and grandfather coming back with deer from their hunting expeditions, hanging it up in the basement and skinning their prize. Always made me ill (ironically i was always a little upset that they never brought me along because I was a girl- I think these contradictory views are why i am vaccilating and trying to form an opinion, seeing both sides of this and feeling torn).
That is different, I think, from living on a farm and killing animals that you grew for the sole purpose of eating.
Yes, for them the eating of the deer was an added bonus, but they were really doing it for recreation.
Then a few posters pointed out that a deer roaming free and then getting shot is more humane than being bred for food and living on a farm. They are right.
Since I can’t justify my view anymore, my vague sense that hunting is wrong (The men in my family are not scumbags for hunting- I shouldn’t have implied that before-sorry- but i think that their enjoyment of this activiy is loathsome.
I think what you mentioned, about how the hunter usually does not enjoy the actual death but rather the thrill of the hunt, is similar to a person who likes eating meat but doesn’t like watching cows die.
Nevertheless, since I still have this feeling or wrongness in my stomach about the idea, it think it would be best if we all were vegetarians. It won’t be hard for me, I don’t eat much meat anyway.
For protein we could eat bugs. They are so plentiful and they are easy to raise and care for and they take up so little space. Plus their nervous systems are not as complex as a mammal’s, so they probably feel much less pain at death.
There’s an argument going on around where I live about these big walls the city put up along the highway to try to cut down on the noise that homeowners who live along these freeways experience. Some people say it makes the city ugly, but homeowners insist the walls stay for the noise factor. In regard to this, I once heard someone on the radio say something to the effect of being happy to pay anyone who lives along the freeway for their house, as long as they lived there before the higway was up. In other words, you knew what you were getting into when you bought a house along a freeway.
Does the same sort of thing apply to living in a hunting area? I’m certainly not trying to imply that everyone who lives in a rural area should have to afraid of leaving their house because they feel they might get shot, but if the area was well used for hunting before you lived there, can you really complain as much about it? Who was there first?
ok …ive never been much on things of the lord…but i mean comeon…it states int he bible that the lord places these creatures for us to eat…i mean fuck ppl get some common sense…or maybe your college pot infested minds cant handle it…shit im only 16…and i get this point
No, I’m personally tired of folks who like to hunt who feel it is necessary for me to applaud and make consessions in MY life for their hobby. as I said, “don’t bother me with your hobby and I won’t bother you with mine”
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Of course I know he was wrong. I was never able to see his back, only his side as he walked past my bathroom window when I was getting out of the shower. I chose NOT to go running after him. Thanks for your apology on his behalf.
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We may disagree on the percentages, though. But, frankly my point isn’t ** if ** you hunt and are nice about it, it’s I personally don’t like hunting as a “sport”. I don’t like football, either, but during football season, my ability to navigate around town and home safely is not generally impeded. However, DURING those 2 weeks of shotgun season, plus the muzzle loading season and the weeks of bow season, plus firearm small game season et al, I have to be acutely aware that armed strangers are lurking around pretty much my entire trek home to the boondocks. Bugs me. My point again is that MY hobbies are not likely to infringe on your day. Yours does.
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Good for you, I’m glad. they don’t mind you hunting on their property. I mind people hunting on my property. I also am fearful of traveling by the enormous spans of woods that are hunted.
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** and **
Not the point, in my book. The facts that the State insures that it makes money off of hunters and that hunters do other good works doesn’t change anything I’ve complained about.
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off point. My odds of getting shot during hunting season are BECAUSE of your hobby. When I enjoy MY hobbies, you’re not in danger of getting shot. (post modified to correct the spelling etc.)
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Funny, that’s what brother in law Wally said. The law and I both disagreed. You’re pointing a gun and firing it with the intention of killing what you’re aiming at. It is completely your responsibility to insure ** what ** you’re aiming at. Yes, I personally choose NOT to go into the woods during that season, even if I were painted flame orange. But I pay taxes as well, so, why should the woods be safe only for hunters during seasons (and by the way although we’ve mostly talked about deer, firearm season for other critters goes on quite a bit longer)
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Of course not. My ex brother in law is a certifiable idiot. I’m sorry, that demeans idiots. Ummmm, there are no appropriate terms for Wally, but this isn’t the place for that rant. It appears my sarcasm was not noted. Sorry. ** Wally ** was responsible.
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good. Please note, that those who you choose not to hunt with are still probably hunting somewhere, bad ethics and all.
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‘cuse me? I maintain that it’s just ducky that you’ve found a hobby you enjoy. Why, tho’ do “you” (in the generic sense of hunters et al) feel it necessary to foist your hobby on me? For several weeks every year, I have to be concerned about armed strangers wandering around where I live. I don’t like that. Yea, so not all of them act like idiots. that doesn’t make me feel any better. I’m well aware of the money poured into the economy etc etc.
I just want to be able to:
be able to look out my bathroom window and not see some stranger walking by at 5 am;
be able to safely walk to my car;
be able to enjoy the peace and quiet of my home in the country;
to be able to drive to work without worrying for several weeks that somebody’s going to shoot me or my child, some wounded crazed deer would come leaping out (yea, I know they can leap out anytime, but during the season, it’s much more frequent);
be able to get my mail and newspaper out of the box without fear of being shot;
be able to exist on my property without some guy dragging some carcass past me.
These are all things I am able to do ** except ** during hunting season.
the question was “is this activity moral” and most here have responded to ideas connecting with the “kill animals” concept. I chose to look at the question as “is it moral for one group of people in the society to insist that everyone make allowances and changes in their lives for several weeks every year so that the chosen people can enjoy a pursuit that the others don’t like, and infringes on the other’s privacy, safety etc.” In my book: nope.
There’s nothing wrong with hunting within the laws of your state. Poaching is another story. And to the people that claim its not fair since the deer don’t have guns–humans can’t hear, smell, or run anywhere near as well as deer can.
Oh, and who would have thought we would get this far on this issue without being bumped to Great Debates.
I wonder what the over/under on posts was?
Wring - Your problem doesn’t seem to be with hunters; it seems to be with trespassers and people who recklessly discharge firearms. Those people happen to be hunters.
And as for worrying about an injured deer leaping out in your path as a motorist – I see deer along and crossing the road at all times of the year except hunting season. They head for the deep woods and swamps then.
I don’t think any hunter is asking for anyone’s applause. I have absolutely no problem with people who have personal qualms about hunting. It is kind of brutal, and not for everybody.
But if you eat, you are a partner to brutality. It’s part of the natural process. Some people acknowlege that more than others, I guess.
Wring - You asked for a cite as to whether more people die in hunting accidents than car accidents? Are you kidding me? I would be amazed if the numbers aren’t several hundred car crash deaths per one accidental shooting during hunting season.
Unless we’re going to give our property and the farms that provide us our food back to the bunnies and fawns, something HAS TO be done to curb the deer population. It is beyond debate; it is a fact.
MILO–“Wring - Your problem doesn’t seem to be with hunters; it seems to be with trespassers and people who recklessly discharge firearms. Those people happen to be hunters.”
They are not hunters, they are anti-hunters.
I say ANTI-hunters because they seem to like making people mad at hunters, giving hunters a bad name, and most importantly, breaking many laws while in the process.
I will not say much more, Milossarian seems to have said it better than I could’ve, and people say I am REALLY long-winded.
and seems that this, like any hunting Q, is right up milo’s alley
but I must say that any REAL hunter is a responsible hunter. any irresponsible hunter is a threat to society.
just like drunk drivers, psychopaths, and the military…
whoops, omit that last part.
but seriously, folks, how many people die from car accidents a year?
how many more people die from SMOKING for Christ’ sake a year??
the stats are MUCH higher than for hunting.
and WRING-
when you are searching for a car, you will get one with the best safety features for your budget, right?
if ROCK CLIMBING, will you get 100 lb. test carabiners, or 3,000 lb. test carabiners?
if you are doing ANYTHING, will you want yourself protected?
seriously, HOW HARD is it to just put on an ORANGE stocking cap?
or a SWEATSHIRT?
it’s not a big deal, and it’s not especially out of the way… I leave you with that.
Good bye 
Turpentine,I think you are over reacting.
Sure the guy shouldn’t have been in your backyard. He was an insensitive,to your rights,trespasser.
As far as your fear of being shot though the odds are probably nearly as good to be hit by a meteor. Now please don’t start giving God hell.
Come the first of november we have a pheasant season. There are literally thousands of armed people shooting birds al over this state,Iowa.You know shotguns have many projectiles and I have never been hit by one.Neither has my car. Neither has my house.
I 'll wager that there are more shotguns fired on opening day of our pheasant season than all of Michigans deer season.Wanna Bet.
oops
That should have been addressed to wring