Let’s see, I think you worship Barbra Streisand and Judy Garland, and um, you uh…you have like…um, no, that’s not it.
Darn!
Oh well. Have you gotten that toaster oven yet?
Fenris, yer my hero. {hug}
Meanwhile, I await an answer from POWER_station.
Esprix
I’m so sad. I left my toaster oven with some old roommates to store over the summer. And then they moved, and somehow, my lovely toaster oven has disappeared. I long for the day when I have money again so I can purchase a one
What Javaman said. Although if there really is some kind of “sword fighting” going on I might be interested in seeing that.
Well, for me, I really don’t want to see anybody’s sex life first hand… unless I’m involved of course. I don’t care who has sex with whom (did I use that correctly?), I don’t care about living arrangements, it’s none of my business.
NOW you tell me! 
Hi, Jodi!
Okay, it’s almost three in the morning and I am in A Serious Mood ™ so work with me.
In my mind it’s a question of manifestation. If you find what two men or two women do in bed together repugnant, grand. It’s a preference. To be honest, I think heterosexuality is a bit silly. I don’t get it and I never have, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t accept that ninty-odd percent of the world does. But there is a distinct difference between finding a sexual practice uninteresting or distasteful and disliking, fearing, or irrationally hating the people who practice it.
Is it OK to be homophobic? I would say no. It’s because of the way that homophobia (and I’m not talking about finding gay sex not your thing) manifests itself. Homophobic people are actively discriminating against gay people in ways from subtle to violent, and it comes down to the fact that while someone who is mildly homophobic isn’t the gaybasher who beats someone’s head in because they thought they were looked at funny, there is still an element of ignoring it.
In my mind if you do nothing in a situation most of the time you are approving of it.
When I was in 8th grade the gay rumors started. I lost virtually all of my friends in the space of a week and most of the school wasn’t talking to me. The situation eventually calmed down, but there was a period when I was facing fairly serious harassment.
Teachers would watch me get called a fucking dyke. They would watch me get slammed into lockers. They would see people throw things at me.
Many of them did nothing. Or, even spiffier, explained to me that a certain level of harassment was normal given what I was being open about.
And then there was the classroom itself, where teachers would let some of the most vitrolic and hateful garbage that I have ever heard be spoken without challenge. And some of them would join in.
One degree contributes to the other.
So how do you express that you don’t approve of homosexuality? Do you express it at all? If you think you don’t, are you sure about that? It’s not like announcing disapproval of homosexuality is a formal event- I can tell what someone thinks of lesbianism within 10 seconds when I’m walking around my college campus holding hands with quietgirl. It’s all in subtle (okay, sometimes very blatant) reactions.
It’s a question of what others pick up on, too. I learned this- my parents mildly disapproved of homosexuality and expressed this to me to a certain extent growing up. My logical conclusion was that gay people were wrong in some way, and this led me to thinking that they were flawed and not as worthy as straight people. It’s a natural progression.
If I hadn’t come to my senses during high school I think I’d be a gaybasher right now, to tell you the truth.
I don’t want to say that people uncomfortable with homosexuality are equal to those who go around trying to get gay people’s brains on pavement, you understand. But it’s like any other form of bigotry- there’s always the question of what indifference or having leanings to one side or the other contribute to the whole.
On what basis do you characterize these as “rights”? For example, many people regard one man living and having sexual relations with three or four females in the same house as a bit “abnormal”, and indeed no state (AFAIK) allows for polygamous marriage. Are this backwoods Mormon’s rights being violated?
I anticipate you will give one of two answers:
[list=1]
[li]No, because the state is able to define marriage as a union between two and only two partners. But if you grant that the state is able to define marriage this way without violating anyone’s rights, then what prevents the state from refining the definition further to include only two individuals of the opposite sex? You admit that the state is not recognizing a right but granting a privilege, and is no more obligated to recognize a gay couple’s “marriage” than it is to grant a driver’s license to a blind person.[/li]
[li]No, because the state has no business imposing its own definition of marriage on people. But this means the whole idea of state-sanctioned marriage is meaningless to begin with. In short, there should be no special privileges (tax treatment, ability to adopt, treatment in wills, etc.) granted to any loving union of two or more people. For once you say that the state should recognize some unions as more “special” than others, you’ve returned to point #1. You are arguing that gays have a “right” to something that–if you’re honest–you don’t really believe exists in the first place.[/li][/list=1]
If you can’t come up with any better arguments than these, then I’d respond that you are just blowing smoke to try to obscure the issue, and diluting the very important concept of human rights while you’re at it.
BTW, I tend to think that this is what POWER_station means by his wish that gays would keep their private behavior private. I can’t speak for him, of course, but the way I read his OP was something along the lines of: “I know everybody has their own little pecadillos in private. Why should I be forced to publicly acknowledge Charlie and Ben as a couple, and be subject to all the attendant ‘gay rights’ nonsense, when I know that Mike over there gets his rocks off on his little dog Rover, or Sally over there considers herself one of Raul’s three live-in brides? Mike and Sally don’t pester me with ‘bestiality rights’ or ‘polygamy rights’, so what makes Charlie and Ben any different?”
You can’t really call this inlolerance - a like or dislike of a certain individual for their expressed opinions and the company they have chosen to keep is totally different from lumping a huge sector of society into a group and judging them all based on their sexual preference, a factor that they were born with.
Calling both of these “intolerance” is like comparing anti-semitism with a dislike of Don Cherry.
This should read “Yes”, of course.
BTW, a word of advice: don’t come back and say that I’m a homophobe because I have somehow “equated” homosexuality with bestiality or polygamy. I would hate for you to expose your own prejudices against the honest, hard-working people who pursue those equally legitimate lifestyles.
I would have this same attitude providing that all things were equal. They aren’t- clearly they aren’t- and the reason that us uppity queers are screaming until we’re blue in the face is that we’d like society at large to recognize and change this.
Hell, I’d even settle for that horrible stagnation that the civil rights and feminists movements has hit where society has superficially convinced itself that white people don’t have any extra advantages and women are pretty much equal even though that’s a tangled web of lies.
If only the gay rights movement were just about sex! My life would be so much easier if Jennifer and I just had sex. But we’re in a relationship, a wonderful vibrant one where we could practically be the lesbian poster couple, and this means that I want my relationship with her to be the same as a straight person’s relationship with their spouse.
I want to marry her. Or at the very least I want to be able to live where I choose and not have the decision be dictated by what area has the best under the circumstances domestic partnership laws. Ditto for being able to choose where I work without having to worry if they have a domestic partnership policy, if I can get fired if I’m out at work (think about how much you talk about relationships in a day- how often do you reference a spouse, lover, child, or friend? Try not mentioning the most important person in your life for a week and get back to me on how it feels.) I want to buy a house and have children with her, I want the two of us to not have to worry about having our years together declared invalid if one of us should die. I want to visit her in a hospital if she is sick and be recognized as her partner, spouse, whatever you want to call it.
I could go on, but… well, there’s just so many things that Jennifer and I cannot have or cannot have without fighting and filing additional paperwork that can get overridden anyway.
I’m sorry. I know I’m completely ranting off the deep end here, but every day is just another reminder that no, I am not a full citizen of America and the relationship with the woman that I love, one that has been the greatest joy of my life since we were both 16- means nothing outside of the two of us. And what it means to just the two of us is nothing the minute we have to deal with the outside world as a couple. We might as well be strangers.
Gee, I personally find a lot of women sexually unattractive. Now, if some man wants to have sex with one of these women, in private, that’s his business, but I don’t really want to have to watch guys mooning around in public holding hands and getting all kissy with these women, putting pictures of them on their desks at work, forcing me to treat them as a couple in social situations, etc.
I mean, is it really too much to ask that my own private personal preferences be the standard of everyone else’s public conduct?
I think I’ll go start a thread about how people shouldn’t be able to eat foods I don’t like in restaurants.
I love you, MEBuckner.
Esprix
Now, see, you’re just gonna get POWER_station all upset.
Depends on what those preferences are. Do you prefer not to pray in school? Do you prefer to let yourself get so fat that you can’t fit into a standard movie theater seat? Do you prefer that your kids pledge allegence to the flag? Do you prefer that the Nativity scene be taken out of your city’s Christmas display? Do you prefer not to take baths and then stink up public libraries? Do you prefer to get hysterical at the idea of “secondhand smoke” in a breezy public park? Then I’d say no, you should go right ahead and sue the world to make sure everyone else adheres to your standards. After all, you’ve got plenty of company.
Ah, are you a member of PETA (those chickens aren’t free range!)? Or are you a vegan? Either way, and again, you’ve got plenty of company.
Oh yeah, I forgot, you have precedent for this too:
Of course, if it had been a male graduate student displaying a picture of his boyfriend wearing nothing but a thong, he could have easily sued the University for its homophobic policies.
So it goes to show, MEBuckner, you can indeed impose your private preferences on everybody else, just as long as those preferences are the correct ones.
I prefer not to pray in school, or anywhere else. I defend the right of others to pray, including the right of students to pray in public schools. I also defend the right of students to not pray in school, which does not mean “they can go sit out in the hall while the rest of the class participates in the daily State-sponsored religious exercise”. I defend individual religious rights; I oppose State support of any opinion concerning religion.
Not quite sure what the relevance of this one is. Are there any states with laws making it a crime to be fat? Is it illegal for fat people to get married?
I don’t have any kids. I don’t think anyone should be forced to pledge allegiance to the flag.
See above regarding prayer in school. Any person or group of persons who want to spend their money to put a Nativity scene on their property are free to do so. You can’t spend my money on your Nativity scene, and you can’t put it up in my living room. Similarly, I can’t spend your money on my “Up With Atheism!” monument, or put it up on your front lawn. Since the city hall belongs to both of us, neither of us can take it over and convert it into a church/Museum of Atheist Propaganda
Generally speaking, homeless people in libraries don’t bother me. (I assume that’s what your referring to.) At least if they’re in a library they aren’t generally panhandling. If someone looks a bit unkempt or even downright dirty in a public place, well, I’m glad I have a job and a place to live and running water. If they’re so filthy (or are wearing so much cologne, for that matter) that they’re disturbing the other patrons, that’s a problem. And if two people, of whatever genders, are making out right there on the library table, disturbing everyone else with the moaning and panting and so on, they should properly be asked to cool it. On the other hand, if two gay men are sitting in the library, and they look up and smile at each other and maybe touch hands or kiss briefly, how is that any skin off of anybody else’s nose?
In a breezy public park? Nah. That one was kind of a softball, wasn’t it?
No and no.
And your reasons for thinking I would support such a thing are exactly what?
It is unfortunately true that the Political Correctness of the Religious Right still holds sway in some areas, to the point that people of whose lives the Politically Correct Right Wing disapproves are still subject to having their most private and personal acts subject to criminal prosecution by the State.
quote from www.m-w.com:
Main Entry: 1ab·nor·mal
Pronunciation: (")ab-'nor-m&l, &b-
Function: adjective
Etymology: alteration of French anormal, from Medieval Latin anormalis, from Latin a- + Late Latin normalis normal
Date: circa 1836
: deviating from the normal or average : UNUSUAL, EXCEPTIONAL <abnormal behavior>
According to the dictionary homosexual behaviour is abnormal
However, I don’t think this is anything to be afraid of. I mean really are you going to be afraid of a person who uses sign language to comunicate because he/she may be deaf?
The only reason I can see that one might be afraid of gays is that said person might be afraid of thinking gay thoughts themselves. And if thats the case your really not a homophobe your just sexually insecure is all.
:: Notes one (1) hug from Esprix ::
:: Checks Esprix’s name of the list of “People who’ll get what’s coming to 'em after my intevitable rise to power” ::
:: notes disapprovingly the vast lack of hugs from anyone else ::
:: starts adding names to same list ::
By the way, Esprix: I’m guessing P_s is gonna be a while in responding. Having hugged me (me being another guy and all), you’ve probably caused such deep emotional distress to Ps that he’s probably huddled in a corner of a darkened room, breathing into a paper bag, whimpering and trying to suck his thumb (but the bag would get in the way, of course).
For shame. FOR shame. Such unwarranted cruetly to P_s.
Fenris
I’m sure you’ll equate your own marriage/relationship with bestiality, too.