Two ways one can believe in Theistic evolution for most things & yet still believe in
a specially-created 10,000 yr-old humanity-
The straightforward way: God created everything using evolutionary processes, including prehistoric human-like beings, then- BAM! He then created fully ensouled God-conscious humans distinctly seperate from everything else. A lot of Old-Earth Creationists hold to this, though they mostly seem to see humans as created much further back in time.
The cheating way: God created everything, including humanity, via evolution, but it was only about 10,000 years ago that He then gave humanity souls & God-consciousness, the “human soul” being the special creation.
Yeah, the latter option re-defines the question, which is why I called it “cheating”.
I do see now that the poll did include Theistic evolution, so the results do surprise me that more people didn’t go for that. Of course, the focus is still on the special creation of humanity. I wonder what the results would be on the question “God created the world in its present form around 10,000 years ago.” If a sizable population affirmed that, I would share the OP’s despair.
But I’m not sure this changes my question. Teachers in parochial schools are still people in the religion teaching others within the religion.
So now I’m guessing you’re saying that Protestants taught Catholics about creationism who then passed it down to other Catholics. Is that right?
I find this an odd explanation as well since Catholicism is a much larger body than Protestantism by numbers. Why would a Protestant teaching get passed down to Catholic followers?
You learn things other places than just school. And really, a lot of kids don’t pay all that much attention to religion classes when they’re little. So they mishear or misremember or just plain forget entirely. Then they grow up and maybe make friends with an Evangelical or else hear something on radio or tv which seems to kinda almost jibe with what you learned when you were little (because you aren’t remembering it right) and so you believe it. Well, or not, but apparently some do.
41% of Catholics had Protestant friends that they believed more than their teachers? Do you hear lots of creationist stuff on TV and radio? Because I sure didn’t. . . ever. I thought that was one of the big deals of Protestants that the media is too secular. . . showing all that evolution stuff.
You’re stretching the bounds of probability here.
So back to the original point, to say that the religion is not responsible for passing on the information because it’s not the “official” information seems to be a technical point that, while technically accurate, doesn’t absolve the religion from the misinformation.
One could argue that the Bible, depending on interpretation, only has goodness in it and that it’s the followers that mess it up. But if the followers are consistently messing it up, shouldn’t one look to the tenets of the religion to see why that is?
You’re a grownup now. Do you still cling to everything your teachers told you as though it was the One Truth? Surely not!
Well you need to surf some channels. There’s a whole whackload of TV preachers and, like it or not, they are pretty popular. And most of them are the hardline type christians.
Well some of them would like all of evolution wiped out of the media, but tell me how often you’ve seen TV shows about evolution.
So if someone who goes to your school says something stupid, it’s the school’s fault and not the person’s?
You could try looking at IQ studies, peer influences, and the personal psychologies of people who take on these beliefs rather than blaming the religion for it. Tell me, if the majority of people of the religion do not believe it (as the study shows for Catholics), do you then assume that it is the religion that is responsible? In fact, if the majority do not believe in creationism, then why look at the religion as a ‘cause’ of belief in creationism, since it clearly hasn’t persuaded the majority of adherents?
Not necessarily. There are any number of people who decide what to believe because it “feels right” to them rather than because they have studied or been taught doctrines outside the dogma of their faith. I had no problem believing that some number of Catholics “got it wrong,” and I have no trouble believing that some of them get their information from adamant Evangelical neighbors. I just find the huge percentage of 41% to be way too large for all 31 1/2 million of them to have gotten their beliefs “through religion.”
Given the numbers of Americans who believe the moon landings were hoaxes, that Oswald had nothing to do with the shooting of JFK, and any number of other oddly but widely held beliefs, I see no reason to dump the 41% of Catholics who hold serious errors about evolution on the lap of religion, Catholic or otherwise. I am sure that some Catholics got their strange opinions from forceful non-Catholic neighbors. I am also fairly sure that those 31 1/2 million people did not all decide to go get their science info from outside groups, ignoring the actual positions of the church.
They aren’t ignoring their religion. They’re following their religion just fine. It just so happens that their religion does not conform 100% perfectly with Catholic dogma. It is still, clearly, a religious belief.
I mean, the belief in question involves:
(1) a supernatural entity who
(2) created the universe and
(3) made humans special and
(4) is worshipped
That’s a religious belief. What the heck else could it be?
No, you are guessing wrong. I am not saying anything about Protestants at all. There were no Protestant teachers in the Catholic schools I attended. Back then, there were virtually no Protestant students. The point of my post was that, contrary to tomndebb’s opinion, it is not implausible that there are Catholics who are ignorant of the Church’s official stance, and who honestly believe that good Catholics are supposed to be creationists. What I am also saying is that in my *personal *experience in the 1960s, more than a few of them were lay teachers and nuns who taught in Catholic elementary schools, thus perpetuating said ignorance.
Speaking as an agnostic I say of course it is !
Just so long as that religion is Christianity or maybe Judaism.
But for anything else it is highly offensive and you cant blame them if they murder you for it.
I mean hey !theyd prefer not to but their hands are tied.
My take is that you can’t blame Catholicism, they have taken the correct stance. You can, however, blame “religion” (especially American religion) in general for so widely spreading such nonsense that even some Catholics believe it.
I expect that the reason the US is so out of step with the rest of the world on evolution is that it is one of the few highly religious Christian countries in which Roman Catholicism is not the dominant religion.
It’s been OK to make fun of religion ever since Jesus did it. Earlier than that, in fact; the Old Testament is full of jokes about religion as well. One of the best is when the Prophet Elijah suggests that the Phoenician God Baal isn’t responding to a sacrifice because he’s taking a piss. (See 1 Kings Chapter 18.)
it says “within 10,000 years.” I suspect they moved the line back a bit to be a catch all for other creationist stripes that may have a different number
What about the 27% of Atheists/Agnostics who believe God guided the process and 13% of Atheists/Agnostics who believe God created humans in present form in last 10k years? We can definitely make fun of them, can’t we? I mean, did they not understand one or more of the questions?
Well, I’m an atheist, and I say go for it. Or make fun of the study; as I said, either the study was flawed or they questioned some really foolish people, to get a result like that.
Considering how many Catholics ignore Church teaching on stuff they really care about, like birth control, is it so odd that they ignore it on minor stuff, which might have been taught in a contradictory fashion? How many hours were spent on Adam and Eve and the fall, things that reenforce a creationist message? A lot more than on evolution.
When I went to Hebrew school, our “history” started with Abram, and never pretended that Genesis 1 was history. We still learned about Adam and Eve, and no one said it was a myth. Do Catholic elementary schools really teach the subtleties of the Fall, or do they make Eden a real place in history?
There were plenty of people pushing JFK conspiracy theories - you’re basically wondering why people think Oswald didn’t shoot JFK but denying they got information from the conspiracy theorists. Science ignorance might explain ignorance of how evolution works, but not the almost majority who believe in one particular bullshit hypothesis.
If everyone believed in evolution directed by God, there’d be no problem, since that position is not falsifiable and not directly in contradiction to any known facts. But if the created 10,000 years ago position doesn’t come from their Bibles and churches, I don’t know where it came from.
I’ve got a meta-question: why are the rational religionists, those in 100% agreement with atheists about the absurdity of creationism, in such denial about the influence of some religions (not their’s) on the American public? The claim that religion cannot be held to blame for America’s creationist beliefs is astounding. No one is claiming all religions teach this, but it is clear that the generic religious culture of the US does - even to the extent of influencing those whose religion doesn’t teach it.
Or maybe it’s a big atheist conspiracy to make religion look bad. Bwah-ha-ha. :eek:
Because they don’t want to admit religion is ever a bad influence, no matter how blatant it is. No matter if it’s creationism or people killing in God’s name, we are supposed to pretend religion isn’t at fault.
I doubt it. I can’t remember much in Catholic religion classes talking about Adam and Eve and the fall except in a metaphorical sense.
As to where they are getting their information, I would guess simple popular culture (which clearly had a religious origin on the topic), the same as the atheists and agnostics who answered the same way, but not through actual church teachings. (In fact, the three Catholics I know who do make an issue of Creationism were Baptists who converted, one because the person married a Catholic, I’m not sure of the other two.)
In other words, while one may lament the ways that religion permeated popular culture to the point where some Catholics, atheists and agnostics all hold rather odd views of human creation, it would appear that it is not religious indoctrination–the sort at which we can point and laugh–that has resulted in the curreent situation.
But why then are atheists, susceptible to the same popular culture, more prone to believe evolution that the religious? And why do those who belong to conservative religious churches the most likely to reject evolution? Do you think they are more affected by popular culture? Or maybe I am missing something and when you refer to “the church” you mean Catholicism.