Is it okay to encourage a child who chooses to be transexual?

Great Debates
61

In response to the links to the FBI files…

was anyone in the FBI an eyewitness testimony? I remember the day it happened and I remember watching it on the news… and I remember seeing a girl in tears talk about how she saw the killers walk up to certain people asking them if they believed in God and when the said yes that person was shot. THAT WAS AN EYEWITNESS!!! I DON’T CARE WHAT THE EFFIN’-BI FILE SAYS! THE MEDIA IS FABRICATED! I’m going to believe what I heard on the news with my own ears from someone who was in the same room as all that on the very day it happened…

62

And that one incident somehow invalidates what transgenders have gone through?

:dubious:

63

Eyewitness testimony is notorious for being inaccurate.

64

As Captain Carrot pointed out, this never actually happened. Got anything else?

Yeah, but when you say, “They are, however, murdered by other children who are Anti-Christ,” you are implying that being Christian puts one at particular risk of being killed for your faith. While this may be true in Darfur, in this country, and any Western country, being Christian makes one safer than any other religious association.

Okay, fine. You’re a god. And the kid in the OP is a girl. What’s your point?

65

I heard the author speak on television. They have a recording of what happened. One of the shooters asked it, but didn’t shoot the girl.

The girl on the tv news was confused. Probably because some shitstains just shot up her school.

Doesn’t it make you question your stance if new evidence comes to light? It really seems like your opinions are based on ignorance.

66

I cited the David Reimer case earlier, and this is pretty much what happened, except in reverse. David Reimer was a male born whose penis got lopped off in an unfortunate circumcision accident. Then Dr. Money saw a prime opportunity to test out his theories–he did surgery to remove all the boy’s genitalia and David (then Brenda) was given estrogen and raised totally as a female. Suicidal depresson resulted, and he never identified as female. In his teenage years when his parents told him about his birth situation, he gave up Brenda and became David.

And how did he end up? Well the damage had already been done. He killed himself.

67

I’d also like to point out to the OP that we have a few transgender individuals on this board, who could probably share their own experiences.

68

Taking religion out of this, (hopefully) I didn’t see this news item. Did the 8-year-old kid have tests to determine this? We can’t slice his brain open yet, so how does anyone know this is TRULY how he feels?

If he were a teen, I’d be more inclined to listen to his arguments on becoming a girl. Maybe he’s homosexual, and not clear on his real feelings?

I hope I didn’t come off as being against transgenders earlier, I just think he’s too young to decide at this time.

Lucanae, if this kid were going to, say, a public school, who you have cared?

69

You’re right, the media is fabricated. Note that the FBI is not “the media.” And the media ate that story about the praying student up like it was ice cream and fudge. So when you say, in your all-caps fashion, that the media is fabricated, consider who has been in the forefront of selling you the story about Cassie Burnell and the question of faith: the media.

But, really, the question of who said what before being shot is moot, because there’s no particular reason to think that, if Bernell has said, “No,” that she would have survived. Klebold and Harris were slaughtering people indiscriminantly. There was no rhyme or reason to who they picked as their victims. If Klebold actually asked anyone that question, its unlikely he particularly cared what they answered. He most likely would have said it simply because, in his tragically stunted, rage-filled adolescent mind, it made him sound like a bad-ass.

And, of course, there’s the final factor that, “I believe in God,” does not equal, “I’m a Christian.” But now we’re getting pretty far afield.

70

I agree, at this point, it’s too early to tell if the kid is genuinely transgendered, or is just going through some weird phase. Most transgendered people I know were aware from a pretty early age that there was something wrong with their bodies, so it’s very possible that this kid really is transgendered. And I’m not aware how common it is for non-transgendered kids to go through a phase where they want to be the opposite gender. I’ve never heard of that happening, but I’m hardly an expert on child sexuality, so maybe that’s a thing, too. But it seems to me that the potential for long-term harm is much less if they indulge the kid now, than if they ignore the problem and hope it goes away on its own.

For one thing, it’s unlikely that they’re doing anything that can’t be reversed later. I very much doubt that they’re doing any sort of surgery, for example. They might have the kid on hormones, or possibly just hormone blockers. If the kid really is transgendered, then it’s important to limit the amount of testosterone his body produces, because testosterone can cause physiological changes that are pretty much irreversible, making it much harder for him to transition later. If she decides at a later date that she really is a he, they can stop giving him the blockers, and maybe administer a few hormone booster shots, and he’ll continue to mature normally.

71

People with psychosis don’t just have wacky belief systems. Much of their cognitive functioning is impaired and they generally can’t function like a normal person. Most people with delusions are clearly sick people, and it’s ethically wrong to let them think otherwise. Furthermore, catering to someone’s delusions may be useful up to a point (like when trying to get them to take their meds), but doing so could encourage paranoid beliefs and crazy behaviors. I’d be scared to live with someone who thought they were God. God is a wrathful sumbitch.

But the same can’t be said for transgendered people. The perception of one’s gender identity is completely subjective; there’s no way of knowing if one’s inner feelings are wrong or not. In contrast, psychotic delusions are, by definition, objectively false. And there’s no harm in letting someone switch genders, or treating a person in a gender-neutral way. It may be awkward to do in our gender-conscious society, but there’s nothing objectively wrong with letting a little boy wear skirts and hairbows if that’s what will make him happy.

72

Answer to your question: Yep. A Boy. Still am, wait… (checking…), yep, still am a boy. And WHAT a boy! :smiley:

I’m familiar with the Reimer story. That was a tragic accident for the kid. But I’m not sure how that relates to a boy who turns 8 and says he’d rather be a girl. Did they accidentally add a dick, the opposite tragedy of Reimer?

“Mr and Mrs. Whoever, we accidentally added a dick to your infant girl!” “Oh, my! We’ll raise him like a boy then!” Don’t think so.

I just think this case is much different. How do we really know this kid really DOES want this? What’s GOOD about this 8 year old and his situation is that we can talk about it and explore it. He says he wants this, but HE’S 8! Don’t our brains continue to grow and develop after we all turned 21? I think if this kid gets his wish at 8, then at 25 he might be saying, “Shit, that was dumb.”

73

Yes, but not that way. Which is why arbitrarily assigning a gender to a child and making them conform by surgery, like done with David Reimer doesn’t work.

74

Yeah, what Der Trihs said.

I was bringing that up more as an answer to what Lacunae said suggesting there’s a lot more mutability than there is than I was to make an argument about transsexualism, though. For that subject, its main relevance is that it’s a very bad idea for someone to be stuck in a body that they don’t identify with, regardless of whether that discrepancy is man’s doing or nature’s.

75

Agreed. But THIS kid’s opinion could change all on its own. He’s picking the gender now, and later… ?

76

Okay, I get ya.

OTOH, I’m stuck in a body I don’t identify with too! I’m fat and short. I’d identify more with a body like Shaq’s! (Kidding on that…) :smiley:

77

I’m sure if I combed through millions of articles on the internet long enough I could find an article about a child (I consider anyone under 18 a child) being murdered because they were a Christian…

…but… are you all seriously going to sit here and say with absolute certainty, that at no time within the past 15-50 years, no person under the age of 18 has been murdered because of their Christian faith?

1.) Not every murder that happens makes it to a media source.

2.) Not every murderer’s motives are known, especially when they commit suicide and leave nothing behind that mentions their true motives.

3.) Not every murder case is solved.

4.) If someone is murdered over something as worthless as a pair of shoes, a beer, or even a little toy trinket, then I can say, without doubt, that someone under 18 has been murdered within the past 25 years solely because they professed their passionate love for and faith in Jesus Christ… and yes, even in the precious, harmless, innocent country we call America. Land of the free… home of the crazed.

There are sick and crazy people in this world. There are people in this world who do unimaginable things to other people for the most mundane reasons imaginable. I bet you I could make up a reason someone was murdered… just think of the most absurd thing off the top of my head… and I could almost 100% guarantee that someone has been murdered for that precise reason…

example…

A man took a handgun and murdered his wife because she cooked him a spaghetti dinner on the second Tuesday in the month of February after he specifically told her spaghetti dinners are to be had only once every other month and only on Fridays or Saturdays and under no circumstance should she ever serve a him a spaghetti dinner on the second Tuesday in the month of February. He also murdered his children because they had already started to eat their spaghetti dinner before he had returned home from work. Then he turned the gun on himself and took his own life because he didn’t know how to cook and the kitchen was a bloody mess.

Front page news story about this situation: “Husband murders family and takes his own life for unknown reasons. Possibly due to recent job loss. The scene of the crime is still under investigation by police authority”.

Police report for the situation: John Doe murdered family with handgun. John Doe then took his own life. Motivations remain unknown. Neighbors saw no warning signs. John Doe was described as a loving family man who didn’t drink or do drugs and the family was always seen interacting in a loving and compassionate manner.

People have motives to kill other people… and whether it’s a spaghetti dinner or Jesus Christ… people are motivated by the most unrighteous and unreasonable reasons.

I heard on my local news no more than a month ago that a man murdered his entire family (wife, two daughters under 10) and then shot himself because he lost his job and was going to lose his house. WHAT THE F’CK!?! IS LIFE EVER THAT BAD!?! IS LIFE EVER SO BAD FOR YOU THAT YOU HAVE TO KILL YOUR LOVED ONES AND YOURSELF!?! WHY!? WHY!?! WHY!?!?!?! It saddens me so much.

point is… people kill people for the stupidest reasons… and sometimes for reasons that can’t be explained… and a lot of times for reasons that will always remain unknown to those who investigate, report, and see it on the 6 o’ clock evening news.

So please… just because you haven’t seen or heard from any media source that a Christian child was murdered for being a Christian doesn’t mean it’s never happened. It has.

One last thing… not every murder case is solved like the media leads the masses to believe with such television shows as CSI, CSI: New York, CSI: Miami, NCIS, The Mentalist, Criminal Minds, The Unit, Flashpoint, Cold Case and so on and so forth with all crime shows on all networks (I pretty much just watch CBS, as some of you may have noticed). There are more unsolved murders than there are solved murders. What kind of world do you think we live in? Candy Land? Full House? America!? THINK ABOUT IT!

78

Luckily, no firm decisions have to be made about what he’ll be for a couple years yet. If it’s real, then those intervening years will make sure we know it.

79

The usual order of things is that you observe evidence, then make a claim. Making a claim then searching for evidence is…frowned upon.

80

It’s not good that this little boy says he wants to be a girl. It’s a problem, as everyone can see.

The question is, what do we do about the problem? Tell the kid he’s delusional, he’s not a girl, he’s a boy, and if he plays with girl toys or wears girl clothes he’ll be punished? And when he’s a teenager and still feels this way, amp up the pressure? And when he’s an adult and still feels this way, kick him out of the house and pretend you never had a child?

Or do we allow the kid to dress as a girl and play with girl toys–if he wants to? And not encourage dressing as a girl, but providing clothes appropriate to either gender and letting him pick which ones he wants? And providing all sorts of toys and letting him pick which ones he wants to play with? And if he plays with dolls instead of trucks, not freaking out?

Nothing in particular has to be done, until the child begins to enter puberty. Then we have to make harder decisions. Is the child really, I mean really-really committed to spending the rest of their lives as the other gender? The fact is, all the surgery and hormone treatments in the world won’t transform them into a girl. If we could wave a magic wand and turn him into a girl it would be one thing, but we can’t. It’s a difficult and painful and only partially satisfactory process.

But living as a man when you’d rather live as a woman is also going to be difficult and painful. What’s the purpose of forcing the boy to live as a man? What does it accomplish? It’s helpful to explain that there’s no magic wand that can change your body, but what’s wrong with wearing the clothes you like, associating with the people you like, and engaging in the activities you like? How does it harm anyone if a man wants to wear a dress and be called by a feminine name? You might think it’s ridiculous, you might think that no matter how he dresses he’s still really a man, but how does it hurt you to treat him as if he were a woman?