my bold.
Seriously??? You admit you don’t care if you mislabel someone a racist. You admit you can’t distinguish between racists and non-racists, so you solve that problem by just deciding they’re all racists?
And you can’t see the problem with this?
The OP offered a pretty solid context and I really can’t imagine some other details that would make the gamer not look like an idiot. Can you?
To the extent you have a point here, you really just threw it in the garbage. This is unadulterated nonsense.
“Most of the stigma” associated with the word nigger “seems to have originated” in America? The word is of American origin as far as I know, and its level of offensiveness is tied to American slavery and its aftermath. But the word is a racial slur everywhere. So what does this prove?
The thread wasn’t about anyone being an idiot.
No it’s not. Calling someone a racist can be very hurtful, particularly if other people hear.
Which is more offensive to call a white person? Usually racist is worse, imo.
Anyway, the point I was making is that people who think branding someone a “nigger” is terrible no matter what the context will often brand people “racist” at the drop of a hat. Both are slurs, and care should be taken with either.
That American TV and movies are shown all over the world? Not sure I understand the question. . .
Your logic is stunning.
Ok. Take a deep breath. What I said is:
This is demonstrably true. I deliberately used the words “arguably” and “many”.
What offense is caused by calling a white person (or Chinese, or any race or colour bar black) a nigger? Little or none. Now, what offense is caused by wrongly mislabelling someone a racist (regardless of race)? Sometimes none, sometimes a lot.
Therefore, there are many situations where it would, in fact, be worse to call someone a racist than a nigger. Because being called a racist is not just indicative of what that person thinks of you, but it can also alter the opinions of anyone else who hears it, and assumes it to be true (as lots of people seem to do nowadays).
Nigger can be said with no vitriol whatsoever. Racist can be too, but rarely is.
To clarify: I’m not defending actual racists here. I’m just making the point that most people who use racist vocabulary are probably not racist.
People who rush to call people racists, on the other hand, are showing their own prejudice, specifically the view that “all people who say x are Bad People”. This is just as bad as “all people who listen to rap music are Bad People”, “all people who blaspheme are Bad People”, and, “all people who vote Republican are Bad People”. And not all that different from “all people who have skin colour x are Bad People”
The thread was prompted by idiotic behavior by a few online gamers.
And this is different from racial slurs how?
We’re not discussing only white people. Are you trying to move the goalposts here or are you seriously attempting to argue that racist is the more offensive word because it’s usually more offensive to white people than a slur that doesn’t apply to white people?
If using racial slurs is the drop of a hat, then yes. So?
They’re both slurs only by the most liberal definition of the word “slur.” One is a description of someone’s attitudes and behavior, the other is a deeply offensive term for a specific group of people that carries the weight of a lot of history.
Obviously not. You said the word is used more casually in other countries (even though you’re acknowledging the meaning is the same and they’re only given a different weight). I said that you were presenting an obvious fact as some kind of insight and then trying to use it to prove the word isn’t really a big deal in other countries. Your observation does not prove what you think it does.
That’s why those words are called weasel words.
The problem is that this doesn’t mean anything. The offensiveness of a word is measured by its impact on the people its directed to, not on people who it specifically does not insult. You might as well say there are no insulting words in English because someone who doesn’t speak English won’t understand them. We’re discussing language in its own context.
You do realize people have been saying this since page one, right?
Having teenage kids I’ve had occasion to watch them and their friends in full flow when they’re gaming, hanging out, whatever. They’re of varied ancestry, Anglo, Mediterranean, African, Indian, Asian and when they’re together they are completely oblivious of those ancestries. Nigger is used quite unselfconsciously to anyone and everyone as a term of endearment, respect, all sorts of ways - the only way that it isn’t used is as a term of abuse. (“You my nigger!” seems to be the most frequently used phrase containing the term.)
Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that the word is used constantly, it’s just there like any other word. Listening to it used thus innocently is refreshing. It sounds natural, it sounds normal and you know what? It sounds like the future.
Idiotic perhaps. Probably not racist, which is what the OP seemed to be saying, and what a lot of people seemed to agree with. “He said x? Right, he’s a racist”
That’s my point - people consider themselves morally superior when they say “you’re a racist”, but, in a lot of cases, they are the ones being prejudiced, while they wrongly call someone else out for being prejudiced. Calling someone a racist on minimal evidence is not acceptable behaviour in my book.
I didn’t say it was more offensive. I’m trying to get across that while nigger can be offensive, so can racist. People here are ready to crucify anyone who uses the former, while happily using the latter with little or no proof that it is true.
If I make a joke about drunken Irish paddies, am I a racist?
They are both slurs by the dictionary definition of slur. Maybe the dictionary reflects reality’s liberal bias!
A lot of people disagreed, too.
Like when they go on about the PC brigade, for instance?
People can take exception to a lot of things. Shall we just go ahead and stop using any word anyone doesn’t like to be called?
If that’s what you’re seeing, I have to wonder what thread you have been reading.
Irish people aren’t usually considered a race. Whether or not you’re a bigot is something I’d have to decide in context.
If you use the “any disparaging term” definition, yes. But the most common use is part of a term like “racial slur” or “ethnic slur.” “Racist” does not qualify. It’s a disparaging comment about a person’s perceived attitude or behavior, not their racial or ethnic failings or inferiority. That’s not a trivial distinction.
They’re called qualifiers. If I say “all dogs are labradors”, then this is incorrect. If I say “some dogs are labradors”, then it is correct.
I object to the term weasel words, it is often impossible to be accurate without them.
My emphasis.
So you agree that a white person can use the n-word and not be a racist?
Do you also agree that if a person does so, without meaning or causing offense, then they can feel hard done by when people label them “racists”?
If you do, then I’m not sure what we’re arguing about here. . .
When I judge someone for what they are doing, I am not “prejudiced.” I am not PRE-judging, I am judging. Having a problem with what someone does is not prejudice. It can be wrong or unfair or just or whatever else, but if it’s based on what happened, it isn’t prejudice.
Qualifiers are sometimes necessary. (See?) But they can also be used to sneak questionable statements into an argument and a claim look more solid than it is. “Racist is arguably a worse slur than nigger in many situations” is one of those. The big problem is that word arguable. Arguable according to whom? How reasonable is the argument? We don’t know. Let’s just say it’s arguable and let people assume the arguments for an against are equally good. Then we can teach the controversy.
I said that in my first post in this thread, so yes.
Some people are offended at being called racist even if they are racists. I don’t think this is a paramount issue. I also think that “without meaning or causing offense” isn’t meaningful. How do you use the word without meaning offense, and who is going to call you a racist if you don’t cause offense?
Your claim that everybody was rushing to declare the gamers are racists, that we don’t have enough context to offer a meaningful opinion, and that calling somebody a racist can be worse than calling someone a nigger.
Yes, and I’m not arguining with them. However, rachellelogram, Euphonious Polemic, jsgodess, Miller, Odesio, CandidGamer, Sarahfeena all seemed to be happy to either call the guy racist, or say he’s either a racist or a jerk. That’s just from the first 30 posts on page 1.
The more I read,the more I think we agree on most of the point being made here. Certainly this one.
And this one.
Ok, good point. But being called stuff like racist, or sexist pig, or similar disparaging terms can still be hurtful and damaging to a person’s reputation.
This thread is SO illuminating. I just discovered that as put off as I am by people whole through racial epithets around carelessly, I’m even more put off by people who spend any energy at all defending the practice.
Seriously, the argument here is that I’m supposed to feel bad for people who think nigger is an acceptable word to say, and get shocked and offended that people think they’re racist?
Fair enough. I just dislike the tendency of people to throw these terms around willy-nilly.
It’s not the paramount issue, but it is an issue nonetheless. People are far too quick to brand people “racist” or similar terms nowadays.
And you can easily use the term without meaning offense. Other non-black people can then mistakenly believe youto be a racist.
I reread the first page. Ok, a lot of people stopped short of calling him a definite racist, and just said he’s either a racist or a jackass, which I disagree with. We don’t have enough context to make a meaningful evaluation of this person’s morals or general behaviour in life. And calling someone a racist can be worse than calling someone a nigger, depending on context, relationship with the person, who else witnesses it and various other factors. Nigger is obviously the more loaded term. But calling someone a racist is not something that should be done lightly.
Look, it’s not a hard concept. If you don’t like people thinking you’re racist, don’t act like one and you won’t have that problem.
Hey, someone’s gotta do it, right?
Believe it or not, some people do think there are times when it is acceptable to use racial slurs. Normal, nice people.
Some people believe that how you treat people is more important than the vocabulary you use doing so.
I am of the opinion that people who believe that people can be categorized in races, are racists. Most others seem to have a different opinion, none of which make sense to me. The enlightened sorts tend toward a definition of someone who feels antipathy or superiority towards what they perceive as other races.
However the use of a word is not an absolute indicator of anything. By my definition, the vast majority of people in the world are racists, and those who are not would avoid being considered such through the use of such language under the circumstances you describe.