When it comes to music, I have difficulties both with timing and tonality. But, for this thread, I just want to talk about timing. One of my self-deprecating lines is “When people say that I dance to the beat of a different drummer, they aren’t always speaking metaphorically.”
If a song doesn’t have a heavy drumbeat counting out the time, I don’t hear the rhythm. I know that a waltz is in 3/4 time, but I can’t clap along in a way that seems to mesh with the music.
And, of course, if you can’t clap you can’t dance. I can’t tell you how many embarassing dance lessons involved me standing there trying to figure out where the “downbeat” was to start the steps. And my partner just looking at me in annoyance.
I get angry and depressed because I just don’t know what I am trying to even listen for.
This becomes more important these days, because the uberbabe would like to dance at our wedding. “And not just the high school shuffle around in circles.”
I can learn dance steps. I can do them in a sequence that (I think) has a consistent rhythm. I just can’t get my rhythm to match what everyone else says the rhythm should be.
This being GQ, and a quest for factual answers, here we go:
What should I be listening for, when I am trying to hear the rhythm? Is one note louder, sharper, longer than then others?
What is the difference between 3/4 time and 4/4 time? When I learned piano, I just played them the same, except that in one the number of quarter notes per line was divisible by three and in the other it was divisible by four. But I really didn’t know the difference for each block. (Which may be why my piano teacher always seemed exhausted by the end of the lesson.)
(more opiniony) What is the best way to learn to hear the rhythm in a piece of dance music? Just writing this thread induces fear filled flashbacks of instructors saying “ONE two three four ONE two three four…” and me having no idea how the counting had any relationship to the music.
I know very little about music, but I can dance relatively well, ballroom and swing. When I was learning to dance, I had some of the same problems you have. Here are my suggestions.
You should listen for a phrase. In most music, you can hear the 3 or 4 counts that make up a measure (even if you can’t tell exactly which one starts it). Once you get that, you can move on to figuring out which note is the first one. Also, listen for changes in the music. They will usually happen on the boundary of a phrase. If you are listening to 4/4 music
The basic repeated phrase is 3 notes long instead of 4 (I don’t know how much that helps). Listen to a bunch of Frank Sinatra songs, (almost) all of which are 4/4 (Foxtrot). Then listen to a bunch of Waltzes. Eventually, you’ll hear the difference.
Lots of practice. Listen to new music. Try to find the count, and ask someone who can hear it if you’re right. As soon as you can reliably do a certain piece of music, move on to another. Realize that some pieces of music are rather hard to figure out, and stick to obvious ones to start.
I have no ability to learn dance steps whatsoever. Someone once tried to teach me country line dancing (in a group of 30 people), and I couldn’t do anything at all. (“Angry and depressed” would be an accurate description; “embarrassed and clumsy” would too. Being the only person in a group of 30 who couldn’t remember a simple sequence of 4 steps wasn’t pleasant.) But when there’s a general method instead of a prescribed series of steps (at clubs, for example), people will stop to watch me and comment on my ability. I couldn’t dance at all in high school, so I must have learned rhythm somehow, and it must therefore be possible to learn rhythm. Of course, it depends greatly on the type of music you want to dance to, and I don’t know much about waltzing, but I suspect the basic idea will be somewhat similar.
So here’s my answer to your three questions:
Usually the accented beat will be louder. Often, there will be one instrument, or one note, that only occurs on the accented beat. It could be a drum, or it could be some sort of bass note. Listen for an instrument or note that seems to stand out from the others and plays in a regular pattern. (I’ve been told that men are better than women at focusing on particular sounds, while women are better at hearing a number of sounds at the same time. This might explain why most DJs are male – they need to focus on the accented beats. If it’s true, you have something of an advantage there.)
In 3/4 time, every third beat is accented; in 4/4 time, every fourth beat is accented. In both cases, the accented beat (and the other two or three) have the value of a quarter note. Once you find the instrument or note that plays only on the accented beat, you’ll find this easier to follow. Modern dance music is virtually always 4/4 and virtually always has a kickdrum on the accented beat; if you listen to something relatively straightforward (and maybe have someone point out the accented beats for you), you should be able to pick out the accented beats regardless of the style.
I’d say the best way is to tap your foot or fingers to the accented beat. Don’t worry about the other beats at first. If you’re thinking ‘one-two-three-four’ and your ‘ones’ are on an unaccented note, your rhythm will be off. Don’t bother with that until you can reliably pick out the accented beats, then try counting off the beats in your head.
Maybe you should take up swing dancing. I took some lessons in that. I have a very good sense of rhythm, and I was somewhat frustrated by the fact that the music is in 4, but the steps are in 3, so you always end up on a different beat. It didn’t really seem necessary to be able to hear which beat was the beginning of the measure. You do have to be able to hear that there are beats, though.
Actually, while most beginning steps are 6 counts, swing dance is full of 4 and 8 count steps that keep you on the same beat. And good swing dancers are pretty fluid in mixing 2,4,6, and 8 count steps so that they hit the important breaks.
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I second swing dancing, though. blowero is right that it doesn’t matter that much what count you’re on, as long as you can hear the beat. Plus, it’s lots of fun and you can swing dance to almost any popular music from the last 60 years.
I would suggest that you listen for the the instrument that provides the rhythm, the drums. Try to hear the bass drum pattern and the snare beat. If you can get that into your ears, I think you will pick up the "movement’’ of the song rather quickly. Good luck.
I will say that I used to have a hard time hearing tones. I would always sing off-key. I now play several instruments, all by ear! It just took focus, and practice on my part. Hopefully that encourages you to stay after it.
The “beat” of a song does not necessarily correspond to the presence of an actual note, and in fact, any given tune may not have any notes corresponding to the actual beat.
A musical time signature denotes the number of beats per bar, and the length of note in musical notation which represents a beat in that context. You can not conclusively say by listening to a song what the time signature is, since the same song could be written in multiple signatures (i.e. take a song written in 4/4 time, write it out in 2/4 time, and play it twice as fast - it is the same thing).
That said, music in 4/4 generally has emphasis on the first beat, with a sub-emphasis on the third. One notable exception to this is reggae, which has its emphasis on the off-beats. Music in 3/4 ordinarily has emphasis on the 1, etc. Music written in higher time signatures (i.e. 6/8, etc.) is done usually for convenience when writing shorter notes, since the finished work will appear much cleaner (less confusing) when written this way, as opposed to being written in 3/4 with a bunch of dotted notes, rests and other notations.
As far as identifying beats when listening to music - I’m not sure what to say. If you ever bob your head or tap your foot to music when you are alone, chances are that you are doing so to the beat. Look for repeating patterns. Vocal verses, drum hits, bass lines, etc. Dividing those intervals into their smallest components will identify the beat. To get some practice at this, or if you just want to hear music in strange time signatures, with changes to different time signatures mid song, listen to stuff by Tool.
Just to mention that I’m exactly in the same situation. As a result, I can’t sing (tone, I don’t notice when I’m out of tone, but everybody else definitely does), play an instrument (I can’t even tune it), and like you can’t dance (I can’t figure out what are these beats everybody else seems to notice. I can learn the steps, but I’ve been told every time that I didn’t follow the rythm. So, I gave up. It’s frustrating.
And of course, nobody ever believes you when you say you can’t sing/dance properly, tell you that you’re just too shy to try, insist until you make a fool of yourself, at which point only they admit you’re weren’t lying and let you alone. This insistance is irritating too.
Not to demoralize you, but I had an ex who was a music teacher, and another who loved dance with a passion, and both gave up after trying to teach me respectively how to sing/ dance.
The worst being that I would love to be able to sing and dance. Really frustrating.
By the way, since we’re both in this situation, I assume there must be some relationship between having difficulties with tone and having difficulties with rythm. Though at first glance, they don’t seem to be related. Does anybody have an idea about how or why they could be?
If this is all you’re really concerned with then pick “the song” that’ll be your first dance and practice with uberbabe. I don’t think it necessarily has to be in time with the music as long as you look like you’re having fun.
If you really want to learn how to hear the beat or rhythm find someone you know who has good natural rhythm and spend some time with them listening to different stuff. Have them point out the down beat to you. Eventually you’ll start to hear it. Try different things. If clapping doesn’t work try marching to the beat or tapping your foot.
BTW - While I agree that in 4/4 time there’s an emphasis on 1 and 3 in most rock and roll the snare drum hit is on 2 and 4 which is what you’ll “feel” on the dance floor IMO. When you see a crowd of people clapping along with a live concert most will clap on 2 and 4 (and those that clap on 1 and 3 look silly) .
clairobscur I don’t see how trouble with rhythm and trouble with tonality could be related except that they both might reflect a deficit in the finer points of hearing. But being able to match tones you have to be able to manipulate your vocal chords to make the same sound that you’re hearing and you have to be able to hear when they’re the same and when they’re not and then you have to be able to fine tune that.
Or possibly it’s having hearing that too finely tuned so that when you hear a note you also hear all the over tones and aren’t able to discern which is the actual note you’re supposed to sing. With rhythm that could translate in a similar way in that the listener isn’t able to pick out the main beats because he’s hearing all of the subdivisions of the beat equally. Interesting.
I am like you. I have no musical ability at all. I washed out of 5th grade band (“Sorry son, but maybe music isn’t for you.”) When I sing, people tell me they can’t tell the difference between my singing and me just saying the words. My wife had begrudgingly resigned herself to the fact that we can never go out dancing, I’m just physically incapable of that.
Then we discovered Dance Dance Revolution.
We picked up a copy of the game DDRMax and a dance pad for the Playstation 2. Now I may have no musical talent, but a lifetime of video gaming has given me a keen sense of visual timing. I initially started out by timing my moves to the position of the arrows on the screen. I scored the same with the sound muted as I did with the music. With some practice, I found myself starting to cue on the beats of the music instead. Having that visual reference helped me pick up on the music and I have slowly improved with time.
Now, while I’ll never win any competitions, I can go dancing and shuffle around in time to the music in a manner that can pass as dancing (all the while picturing in my mind’s eye a constant stream of arrows). If you have a video game system maybe playing a dance game can help you too.
I don’t either. I just noticed that the OP and me both have the same problem with both tone and rythm.
And I indeed have a very slight hearing loss (since birth). I don’t think it’s related, though, since many people have some hearing loss and still are perfectly able to sing. And besides, as I said, it’s a very slight one.
The bolded part is the problem. I can’t tell. For instance if you play two notes on an instrument, they have to be significantly different (say, half an octave) for me to be able to tell which one is the highest pitched one. If you play the notes on two different instruments (say, a piano and a guitar), all bets are off, since I just hear two different sounds, and I can’t really compare the pitch at all.
By the way, I recently wondered (some weeks ago, during a language course) if another issue I have might be related. In languages, a syllable of each word is normally accented, stressed. Most people seem to be able to notice which syllable is accented in their own or in foreign languages. This also is a complete mistery to me.
There are some great suggestions here that I think could help you get a better understanding of rhythm, but in my experience (as someone who has played drums for 30 years and gives lessons), can you learn rhythm? No. A sense of rhythm is an internal thing that you either have or you don’t. Before I take on a new student, I have them sit at the drum set and I go through constructing a beat. I can tell pretty quickly if they understand how the notes are supposed to fall (even if they don’t have the coordination to pull it off yet). If they don’t get it, I tell the parents to save their money.
Fuji Kitakyusho: Finding the accented beat isn’t important in learning how to dance to reggae, though – it’s not a style of dance that requires rigid movement on certain beats. I suspect that reggae still has some indication of the first beat of each measure. Drum and bass (some of which is musically related to reggae) doesn’t always have the accented beat at the beginning of each measure, but it usually has some sort of sound that occurs on every fourth beat, often a snare drum. This is more for mixing the music than for dancing to it. With reggae, and probably with hip-hop and other ‘urban’ or highly rhythm-based genres of music, dancing isn’t as much of a matter of one-two-three-four, one-two-three-four as it is with, say, a waltz.
Jet Jaguar: I said something before about people stopping to watch me dance and commenting on my ability. This does not happen with Dance Dance Revolution; it’s not even worth their time to stop and laugh. DDR is about learning dance steps – a lot of them – which I can’t do at all. Even with songs where I know every beat (like Bang! - Shooting Star and Triple J = Follow the Sun) I can’t make it through a song if it’s more than a few feet. Doing well at DDR definitely requires rhythm, but it doesn’t require exactly the same skills as dancing well when you don’t have to step on arrows. Actually, some of the best DDR players I’ve known have probably never tried dancing other than with DDR. Skill at DDR probably translates to skill at dancing to a certain degree, but not necessarily the other way around. The arrows in DDR are synchronized to beats in the music, so it might be a good way for gamers with fast feet and good reflexes to learn to dance.
What type of dance? I don’t think she really cares, as long as it looks “ballroom” instead of “prom” or “sock hop”. The closest I ever felt to comfortable was trying learning to waltz, so maybe that. (The “quick-quick-slow” of swing really frustrated me, as did the salsa shuffle.)
I had thought of the DDR solution, just because I would feel more comfortable embarrasing the hell out of myself in my own home while still getting feedback on how well I was matching the rhythm. But I don’t want to buy a Playstation just for that. I waste enough time on these boards without also wasting time playing Madden Football.
On the aside about the correlation of arrythmia and tonelessness, I think in my case, the first exacerbates the second. Nervousness about whether I am singing at the right time makes me tense up, making it harder to also hit the notes. I wouldn’t win any contests anyway, but I think that I could sound “not excruciating”.
This thread has really fascinated me and makes me curious about a few things. You folks that claim difficulty with rhythm or pitch:
How much musical instruction did you get as a child? If any, what did it consist of?
How would you describe your musical childhood? Was music played often in your environment? Did your parents (or whoever) sing along with the radio, records, etc.?
Could any of these difficulties be cultural? Some cultures incorporate music more fully than others. Do you sing at church or other group functions?
My elementary music teacher taught the Orff method, which is very heavy on rhythm. However, I distinctly remember her telling me that I couldn’t keep a beat. Naturally, I became a percussionist, and then a band director. In my personal experience, then, I would say that rhythm can be learned (or Miss Hawkins was being a poo-poo head).
I’ve got a class coming in right now (RUN! It’s a herd of eighth graders!!!). I’ll try to check back later and offer suggestions.
Whew, class is over. My percussionists in that class can’t carry a beat in a bucket, so my advice may not be worth much.
However,
A steady beat is around us everywhere. If you can walk a straight line without falling down, you can keep a steady beat. Your heart beats a steady rhythm and even can adjust tempo as required. It can be done, and you’re already doing it. We just need to move this into conscious thought.
Go to your friendly neighborhood music store and purchase the cheapest metronome they have. A small, credit card sized metronome can be had for under twenty bucks. I have a QwikTime QT5 which sells to my students for US$12. If you can, get a metronome that subdivides time signatures (the QT5 does). You can tell because it will have a little time signature on the display. Most can subdivide in two, three, four, and sometimes six. (The QT5 does two, three, and four.)
Now that you’ve got a metronome, set it at about 90. Pat your foot. Learn how to keep your foot in time with the metronome. I suggest using your “non-dominate” foot. If you’re right handed, tap your left foot. This forces you to think across the midline. Once you get 90BPM, change it faster or slower. If you are wanting to waltz, set the metronome to subdivide three. Learn how that feels. Finds a waltz that is very obvious (most are). Strauss’ Blue Danube is a good one that is easy to find. Tchaikovsky’s “Waltz of the Flowers” from The Nutcracker is another obvious one. (I’m not suggesting these for the wedding, just as learning pieces.) Play the recording and set the metronome to match. Perhaps get someone to help you find the downbeat and set the metronome accordingly. Feel the one-two-three nature of it, with the help of the metronome. Play the music softly and the metronome louder. Pat your foot and get the feel of it.
This all takes time. If your wedding is Saturday, you might not make it in time. If you’re looking at a June wedding, then you should be fine. Don’t sit for hours at a time doing this – it’ll drive you crazy. Just a few minutes several times a day should be fine. Other times, just pat your foot to music on the radio.
Good luck and congratulations on the pending nuptials.