Because I believe my grandmother is doing exactly that. They can’t find anything wrong with her, physically-or at least, no cause. She’s malnourished and barely eats, she’s often confused, her blood-pressure is dangerously low, and her muscle tone is all gone-she can’t walk anymore.
The rehab center she’s at thinks it was a mental breakdown. (And if you knew what my grandfather was like, you’d know that they probably nailed it in one). I think she’s happy NOT improving-there’s no doubt she doesn’t want to go home, and my father is looking into nursing homes.
But…is it possible to just shut down like that, all on your own? Will not eating and not exercising at her age (Um, maybe 80?) do that? I went to visit her tonight and she looked terrible.
Well, sure, if she’s not eating, she’s going to become malnourished pretty quickly. Elderly people don’t seem to have the same reserves as younger folks.
I don’t have a cite off the top of my head, but it’s pretty common for elderly people to simply let go and die soon after the death of their spouse - sooner than you’d expect by their prior health, anyway.
My own grandfather was given 6 months and lasted more than 6 years. He just hung on and on until my grandmother finally told him it was alright to go, and he went hours later. (It was the day after their 51st wedding anniversary - he had always joked he’d give her 51 years and that was it. He was right!)
I think there is some, perhaps not well understood, mechanism by which we can “let go” when we’re ready to. Of course, just like with drug addicts, no one else can tell when we’re at that point of no return (or rock bottom, as the case may be.) But I’ve been in 4 death rooms now, and each one definitely “let go” when they were ready.
Maybe if she doesn’t want to go home, a nursing home will make her feel safe enough to change her mind and stay around a while longer. Maybe not. Just keep telling her you love her. Even if you don’t think she’s hearing you, I bet she’s getting the message on some level. Try not to keep her around for your sake, but support her in making her transition in her time, and do it in love. My $.02. Take what you like and leave the rest in change.
My late mother , bless her heart, used to say “I’m so sick” and other comments in a similar vein all the time.
Then she had a stroke. Was it a self fulfilling prophecy or a fluke? I don’t know for a fact, but I am convinced that the mind can do many things if you tell yourself that you can (Breaking bricks in Karate for example)
Breaking bricks in karate has nothing to do with the mind and everything to do with technique and physics. There have been plenty of threads about how it is done.
I know I’ve seen the idea that people hang around for significant dates (holidays, birthdays, etc.) debunked. I’m pretty skeptical about people waiting until they’re “ready” and then dying; it’s the sort of phenomenon that would be very easy to “see” even if there’s nothing there. Sudden weakness or loss of energy may give the appearence of accceptance, and of course it is very likely that someone sensing the sudden worsening of his condition (perhaps unnoticeble to anyone else) might suddenly accept his own (already) impending death. Also, we never hear about people who decide they are ready to die and then go on living. I lived with a woman in her hundreds once. She complained for years that she was ready to die, and even asked her doctor to prescribe pills to kill her. (He refused.) If she willed herself to die, it took her several years, maybe decades, of trying before she was able to do it at the age of 104!
I’d also like to see some evidence that people really die more frequently immediately after the death of a spouse. I’ve heard it lots of times, but I have no idea if it’s true. If it is, are the deaths really unexplained, or are they the result of changes in habit such as diet or not having someone to watch for falls, etc.?
Obviously not eating can affect health, especially in cases where someone is in poor health to begin with. Lots of other things can affect health as well, many of them under our control. If suicide counts, obviously it is possible to die as a result of one’s own will, but I’m pretty doubtful about a lot of the mind-body claims. Even the placebo effect may not be what we thought it was.
Well, that’s the only thing we can figure, because physically, other than the malnutrition, they can’t find anything wrong with her, unless it’s Alzheimers, maybe.
All I know is that my grandmother has never been right since my aunt died sixteen years ago, my grandfather’s a selfish, verbally (and possibly physically) abusive bastard, and it’s gotten worse in the last few years.
We’re not very close-my grandmother is a very, well, strange person. I think she cares about us, but she’s very unhappy, and very manipulative. And rest assured, my father HAS found two nursing homes he can personally vouch for where she’d be very happy and comfortable.
I know clinical depression, and old age can cause a person to shut down, but it just happened so fast, we’re like, what the fuck?
What about the many stories of terminally ill children who have their wishes fulfilled (Make-a-Wish, etc.), meet their favor actor, athlete or whatnot, then seemingly die the next day?
Yeah, but there’s probably just as many who die before their wish is ever fulfilled. There’s always grandmothers who die the day before their granddaughter’s wedding, and fathers who die when their kids still need them. And there’s bitter, miserable people who linger on and on and hate life.
I don’t know. I don’t think there’s a real answer here outside the realm of the metaphysical. I can only answer from what I’ve observed directly, which is that *some *people can choose when to die, and that’s it sounds possible that Guin’s grandmother is one of them. Maybe we all can’t choose, just like we all can’t whistle.
In all likelyhood, your grandmother is dying of old age. I don’t know how old she is but if she’s beyond 75 or 80, it may be that she’s just getting old. We’re not meant to live forever and I think we all need to accept that fact.
It doesn’t mean she’s willing herself to die.
I think people can will themselves if they are sufferring from an untreated psychiatric illness such as depression.
You would be the best one to know if that was a complicating factor in your grandmother’s situation. If you love her and she loves you, why don’t you ask her what she’s doing?
Just because someone gets old it doesn’t mean their issues diminish or go away. In fact, ‘end of life’ issues can often take over all of the other stuff they’ve battled for ever.
I believe it can happen even if it isn’t the norm. My stepfather’s father got somewhat frail and decided that it was best that he go into a nursing home. Now, his wife was still alive but he never could stand her. Being in the nursing home was partly motivated by getting away from her. He did fine in the nursing home but his wife at home got quite bored. She wanted to be in the nursing home too. My stepfather packed some of her stuff and took her there. She got a bed right beside her husband. The staff found him dead in bed the next morning.
Actually, they’ve done studies on this - exluding the presence of major psychiatric disorders, people who are dying do not and cannot just “hang on”.
If they have comorbid illnesses such as Major Affective Disorders - depression or Anxiety Disorders or even a whole host of other serious psychiatric disorder, this picture is very different.
It makes no difference, either, if people pray for them.
Very often, emotional/psychiatric illnesses that are very treatable are ignored in the elderly. So often their distress is looked upon as just ‘normal’ for the ageing.
This is very much like viewing an unhappy older person as just “getting old”. No. What we had when we were young will affect us and hang onto us when we’re old.
You know what? I belive that! I tried to start a tread on ‘Personality Disorders in The Elderly’ - go there and make a comment. One of your grandparents may have well sufferred from a Personality Disorder!
Yes, people die of old age, but there’s usually something to point to-bad heart, cancer, blood pressure, etc.
And in this case, it’s pretty damned obvious she is suffering from it. We’ve seen it for years.
As horrible as this may sound, when you say “love”, I think more, well, she is my grandmother, and I guess I “love her” in that I respect her, and she’s my grandmother. But I’m not close to her, she’s not a very warm, or open person, and quite honestly, I don’t think she’d admit it. Like I said, most of the time, she’s not all that lucid anyways, and she flat out refused to talk to any of the psychiatrists or counselors at the center. Besides, she’s never been honest, she lies, she manipulates, and it’s not like she’d tell me anything.
Absolutely-if anything, the issues she’s had have gotten worse. She refused our offers of help, shut everyone out of her life. It’s like when my aunt died, she decided from then on, she was no longer going to enjoy life. And she succeeded.
At this point, talking to her would be talking to a brick wall. I’m not close enough to her to say anything-those that are-my dad and his sisters, and her sister and various people have been met with silence. If anything, she’s shut us all out on purpose. Don’t get me wrong-it’s not like I’m saying, “Oh, it would be too much of a hassle, I don’t want to be bothered” but more that I would do more harm than good. If she won’t talk to my dad or his sisters, or her own sister, she ain’t gonna talk to me.
Besides, she’s not always lucid. She’s confused and right now, the best thing would be to keep her happy. She seems content-and that’s what matters.
And again, by now, we’ve pretty much realized that it’s not a question of if, but when. She’s not going to be around much longer. I’d be surprised if she survives past this summer.
I just wanted to know if it were possible.
Vpriest, it sounds like you’ve found some reports on this. If so, could you link to them here (or provide cites if they’re offline)? This is actually pretty common practice here, since many of us like to look up sources and research reports for the topics that are discussed here.
Personally, I have unsuccesfully treated depression (actually “Mood Disorder, NOS” is the current diagnosis, since it doesn’t seem to fit Major Depressive Disorder or Bipolar Disorder, but the docs have gone back and forth before) so I’m very interested in this. I think if it were possible to will myself out existance, I would have by now, but maybe it only works if you’re dying anyway. Either way, I 'd like to read the studies about it.
O.K., go back to what I said earlier… Personality Disorders in the Elderly are very real things. They don’t diminish with age. There is a lot out there about abuse of the elderly by caregirvers but very little about the abusive elderly. Perhaps your grandmother wasn’t very nuturing when you were young. If so, she’s not going to be very nuturing now that she has ‘end of life’ issues to deal with.
I’m not trying to diminish the very real problem of abuse OF the elderly. But, there is something that not very many people want to admit to (who wants to speak badly of the old and the dead?) and that is being abused by an elder.
You’d have to ask yourself a lot of questions about your relationship with your grandmother. How much of the difficulty lies with you, her, your family, etc., etc. Self-reflection is valuable here.
I’m not saying she’s abusive, at least she’s never been so to me. She’s just not a very warm, open person. I get along with her just fine-she’s always been good to me.
She’s just very unhappy, and she’s got issues that have never been addressed. Any abuse has been on my grandfather’s part, and my dad and his sisters are dealing with it.
Now then, I’ve probably said more than I wanted to, I just wanted to know if it was possible to shut yourself down.
Well, my only evidence (and it’s anecdotal) is that a gay friend of mine, who eventually died of an AIDS-related illness himself, spent the last five or ten years of his life watching friends die the same way (and he was involved in volunteer work in that area too). He told me that it was the general rule, rather than the exception, that AIDS patients would chooose when to go. Not that they had any choice in dying eventually, but they did often do things like:
Decide they’d had enough, and call everybody in to say goodbye, then die within hours.
Wait days or weeks (beyond the doctors’ expectations) for loved ones to arrive from interstate or overseas, say goodbye, then die straight away.
This is a book about Personality Disorders in the Elderly. The editor is Irving B. Weiner. 1999 but it’s still the only book around that deals with this issue. ISBN 0-8058-2683-1.
I tell people that my Grandfather died of stubborn. He had declared that he was sick of living and it was his time because, at 87 years of age and with his mobility and independence diminishing, he figured he had lived long enough and it was only going to get worse from here on in. His doctors told us that, despite the discomfort of some medical issues he was having, he was actually in fairly sound health as none of his organs were affected, and they said that he could live many years yet. Despite that, he passed in his sleep last July, just weeks after telling us that he was done with life.
The mind is a very powerful thing, and yes, I believe that in cases of severe depression, your body would begin to shut down like you described is happening to your grandmother.
Yes, it is possible. It happens fairly often when for one reason or another a person feels life is no longer worth the effort and they deliberately reduce food intake and gradally shut downl
Aboriginal cultures, nd very superstitious, societies have individuals the die in a matter of days when convinced they have a hex or curse put on them and may recover miraculously if convinced the hex or curse has been remover.
