Is Jap a perjorative in this day and age?

[kimera]

@Martini Enfield

“Gook”, “Chink”, “Slant” and “Yellow Peril” are all offensive words for a Japanese (or Asian) person.

One of my coworkers was born and raised in the Northern part of India. He said that in the area where he is from “Chink” is used to describe people of Eastern Asian descent. When he first moved out here, he described someone as “Chinky looking” and his friends were horrified. We explained why it was offensive and he understood but said it was hard for him to remember to not say it because it was what was used when he was growing up.

Although Jap can be offensive, I don’t think that it approaches the level of “Oriental,” at least for individuals in their teens and twenties in this heavily Asian area. I think Jap is mainly offensive when used to refer to people rather than objects. And in the later case, it really depends on how it is said and who says it. One of my half-Japanese friends and I were discussing chopsticks in a mixed crowd and he said “I prefer jap chopsticks.” no one objected to that usage, however, if someone had said “Don’t buy that jap crap” then I would be highly offended.

I have used jap on occasion when comparing Japanese foods/media/music with other types in casual conversations with close friends. While you can say “jrock,” “jdrama,” and “jpop,” most things don’t have shortened names (and some of my Japanese friends hate the terms like “jrock” anyway) and “j” just seems too short, so I use “jap.” If someone told me they found it offensive, then I would apologize and never use it around them ever again. I would never, ever say “She’s a jap” or refer to the group of people as “japs” nor would I use the term “jap” around anyone in a professional situation or around a person outside of my age range.

It’s very interesting to see what is considered offensive on this board and what isn’t. I’ve noticed that there is a lot of variation dependent on age range and geographical location. For example, the term “rice rocket” is widely used here by Asians, including those in the car racing scene. I had never considered the term to be racist because I never heard it said by a white person - only Asians. Same with the term “tranny,” I had heard so many transsexuals use it casually that I wasn’t aware how offensive it was to some individuals.

[Cervaise]

@tomndebb

Note that there is no equivalently structured term for any other nationality.

Musselman?

[GIGObuster]

@Cervaise

Musselman?

Erick Musselman is still a coach without a [del]country[/del] team.

[tomndebb]

@magellan01

So? Is it really that far from Englishman or Frenchman?

It is far enough to be insulting. No one says Englandman or Franceman.

I have no doubt it was use as in insult, but is there evidence that the word was coined the way you say? It seems to me that they needed a word to refer to people who were Chinese (in the “He’s a _______” construct) and started usiing the most obvious formulation. No?

They had a word: Chinese. “He’s a Chinese.” “He is Chinese.” “He’s from China.”
However, they specifically used the word that mocked the speech patterns of those whom they were identifying.

[tomndebb]

Yorkshire is the adjective as well as the noun. Yorkshireman is equivalent to Irishman (grammatically–I’ll leave the pride of place fights to those so named.)
Musselman is a corruption of Muslim. If Mussel was a country, its capital would be Brussels.

[Guinastasia]

I thought Musselman was a brand of applesauce?

[magellan01]

@tomndebb

It is far enough to be insulting. No one says Englandman or Franceman.
They had a word: Chinese. “He’s a Chinese.” “He is Chinese.” “He’s from China.”
However, they specifically used the word that mocked the speech patterns of those whom they were identifying.

Tom, I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but I don’t see how the decision to add “man” to “China” was meant to mock. Are all unique formulations equally mocking? To me it seems the quite logical to come up with that. Some of the most popular constructions were Englishman, Irishman, and Frenchman, which sounds better than Englandman, Irelandman, and Franceman. And Chinaman seems easier on the tongue and ear than Chineseman.

And how does this mock the speech patterns? Maybe that’s the part I’m not getting.

[GIGObuster]

@magellan01

Tom, I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but I don’t see how the decision to add “man” to “China” was meant to mock. Are all unique formulations equally mocking? To me it seems the quite logical to come up with that. Some of the most popular constructions were Englishman, Irishman, and Frenchman, which sounds better than Englandman, Irelandman, and Franceman. And Chinaman seems easier on the tongue and ear than Chineseman.

I think you are having this whole thing backwards, before you mentioned that one way to remove the pejorative meaning was to use it a lot, but the fact was that it was indeed a more common term and it was easier on the tongue and ears of the americans in the past centuries, but the problem was it was used as a racist term then and that history can not be erased just like that:

http://www.ocanatl.org/bin/htmlos/00518.5.2325238502100003443

The term “chinaman” is very derogatory and hurtful to Asian Pacific Americans. “Chinaman” was a racial slur directed towards Chinese Americans when they first came to the United States over a century ago. Thus, the use of such names devalues our progress in the struggle for equality. Racial slurs have been used to dehumanize people of color and remind us of a shameful but very real part of American history.

…

Raymond Wong
OCA National President

And how does this mock the speech patterns? Maybe that’s the part I’m not getting.

I have to say I’m curious about this too.

[samclem]

@magellan01

Tom, I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but I don’t see how the decision to add “man” to “China” was meant to mock. Are all unique formulations equally mocking? To me it seems the quite logical to come up with that. Some of the most popular constructions were Englishman, Irishman, and Frenchman, which sounds better than Englandman, Irelandman, and Franceman. And Chinaman seems easier on the tongue and ear than Chineseman.

And how does this mock the speech patterns? Maybe that’s the part I’m not getting.

For whatever reason, Chinese speakers in the early 1800’s(if not earlier) spoke of themselves as “Chinaman” when describing themselves to a Western person. Almost what we think of today as “pidgin” English. By the 1850’s this was used in a derogatory manner when describing a Chinese speaker. I can give you cites.

[Kent_Clark]

@Martini Enfield

But anyone who sees “Jap” as anything more than a shortening of the word “Japanese” in this day and age not only has too much spare time on their hands, they need to get their priorities sorted out, IMHO.

My wife was born just three years after her parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles were released from internment camps.

She’s probably been called a “Jap” to her face more times in her life than you’ve heard the word.

To tell her that being offended by the term means she has too much spare time on her hand and needs to get her priorities straightened out merely doubles the insult.

IMHO.

[Walloon]

@kimera

Although Jap can be offensive, I don’t think that it approaches the level of “Oriental,” at least for individuals in their teens and twenties in this heavily Asian area…

When did “Oriental” go from being outdated — to offensive?

[Guinastasia]

@Walloon

When did “Oriental” go from being outdated — to offensive?

Agreed. Oriental is more a term of description for things, like rugs, or art. I always saw “jap” as being right up there with “nigger” or “kike”.

[tomndebb]

@Walloon

When did “Oriental” go from being outdated — to offensive?

It seems to have been a slow process. According to this essay by Gordon Lee, The “change” started around 1968. I first encountered it as an issue at the end of the 1980s (so it seems to have been pretty slow getting itself established) and knew second generation Chinese and Korean Americans who still used Oriental in the mid 1990s.

Previous threads on the topic include (but are not limited to):
Oriental – round 2 October, 2004
The term ‘Oriental’ and racism in general January, 2003

[China_Guy]

@DrDeth

I use/d “Jap” in one context only- to refer to the WWII Convicted War Criminal Government of Japan. It is a mild perjorative, but no worse than “Yank or Brit”.

DrDeth, no doubt this is the way you use and understand the word. However, mind showing a cite on how “Jap” is commonly used as a demunitive for “WWII Convicted War Criminal Government of Japan”?

@Martini Enfield

In other words, there are A LOT of people in Australia- even people in my age group- who have never, and will never, forgive the Japanese for what they did during WWII, just as there are many people who feel the same way (and rightly so) about the Nazis or the Russians (to a lesser extent).

That doesn’t make it “Right”, but it’s safe to say that there’s a sizeable percentage of people here that don’t care if the Japanese are offended by the term, for whatever reason. Certainly, most people use it simply as a shortened version of “Japanese”, with no baggage or ethnic slighting intended- and if the Japanese are offended by that, tough shit.

Martini, not to put words in your mouth and you did qualify it, but you’re basically saying that there are a sizeable group of people in Australia that use the word Jap in a racist sense. But everyone else doesn’t, so somehow someone with Japanese ancestry should be able to tell the difference or tough shit anyhow since there were Japanese war crimes against Australians (and a whole host of other nationalities). I think what you wrote is a contradiction to the word Jap being non racist.

One more tangent. Oriental, as far as I’ve been able to figure out, became a “bad” word sometime after 1985 in the US. (Definition of Oriental in the US and Commonwealth countries tend to differ between East Asia and the Indian Subcontinent). The only smoking gun(s) I’ve found is that it defines the Orient as being to the East of the Colonial powers, and was a colonial term that was inherently neutral to negative. There are multiple threads on this subject. I don’t really get what the uproar is myself but I’ve come around to saying that if Asians in the US want to be called Asians and not Orientals, then I’m happy to respect that. Still like to see a smoking gun that makes sense to me regarding Oriental.

[Martini_Enfield]

@kunilou

My wife was born just three years after her parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles were released from internment camps.

She’s probably been called a “Jap” to her face more times in her life than you’ve heard the word.

To tell her that being offended by the term means she has too much spare time on her hand and needs to get her priorities straightened out merely doubles the insult.

IMHO.

Read my post again… note the disclaimer in this day and age. I’m not going to argue that the word may have been used as a perjoritave in the US (A country I do not, and have never, lived in) during WWII- which was, we must remember, 60-odd years ago and generally considered “Ancient History” by most people under 25 (the few who have an interest in such things being the notable exception, of course).

That doesn’t lessen the discrimination that Asian people suffered during the war, but if we’re going to jump up and down about racial discrimination in WWII, the Japanese didn’t treat the Europeans especially well (as outlined in an earlier post of mine), and they also locked European civillians up in internment camps. Read James Clavell’s novel King Rat for a fictionalised (but not wholly inaccurate) account of what things were like in Changi- which was supposed to have been pretty good, as far as Japanese POW camps went.

Now, if someone around the same age as your wife was to call her a Jap, then yes, I could see how it might be considered offensive to her, given the context that both people grew up using or knowing what the word meant. But if someone who’s say, 18, is using the term, 99 times out of 100 it’s merely a shortening of “Japanese”- nothing more.

As someone pointed out earlier, there’s a very long list of countries whose nationalities are shortened in everyday use, and Japanese happens to be one of them- at least outside the US, where the relevant Governments didn’t lock them up in Internment Camps.

It’s also worth noting that the US imprisoned Germans or Italians with US citizenship as well. And as I also recall, at least according to Wikipedia’s article, the US Government has since apologised for doing this- to the Japanese, the Germans, and the Italians.

And on the “Chinaman” thing:

@The Big Lebowski (Film)

Walter: What the fuck are you talking about? The Chinaman is not the issue here, Dude. I’m talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT… Also, Dude, “Chinaman” is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.

The Dude: Walter, this isn’t a guy who built the fucking railroads here.

[cerberus]

Jap is still perjorative, however inconvenient that might be to some people.

[GIGObuster]

@Martini Enfield

Now, if someone around the same age as your wife was to call her a Jap, then yes, I could see how it might be considered offensive to her, given the context that both people grew up using or knowing what the word meant. But if someone who’s say, 18, is using the term, 99 times out of 100 it’s merely a shortening of “Japanese”- nothing more.

Australian English vocabulary

Australian words

Jap or nip – an Asian person of Japanese descent. The term Nip is sometimes used to describe a person of general Asian appearance. Both of these words are simply shortened terms for Japanese (Nip is a diminutive of Nippon, the Japanese word for Japan). Both are generally considered offensive.

[GIGObuster]

And regarding Chinamen, the term was not used only on the guys that “built the fucking railroads”

[Martini_Enfield]

@GIGObuster

And regarding Chinamen, the term was not used only on the guys that “built the fucking railroads”

I’m aware of that.

There are heaps of words on the cite you list that I’ve never heard anyone use, either, and others which have definitions different to what I’d commonly associate them with. And, just so everyone has the full context, from the previously linked article:

@Wikipedia

Many of the following terms are considered derogatory or offensive to the described ethnic group. Many terms are derived from the Australian habit of using diminutives, and are not necessarily offensive in their use. Some terms, for example “gypo”, have been reclaimed by some ethnic groups to refer to themselves and have become acceptable in certain settings when used without derogatory intent.

(bolding mine)

None of which contradicts anything I’ve said in this thread.

“Nip” is generally considered offensive- “Jap”, not so much- as I keep saying, it’s all about context. It’s not like “Nigger”, in which there’s pretty much no “inoffensive” context for a European to use the word in conversation.

I should also mention that Queensland is less… racially diverse than, say, Victoria or NSW, and so it is possible for “Jap” to be seen as not offensive by people in one place, whilst being “politically incorrect” (or perhaps “offensive”) by people in another.

That doesn’t mean you’d casually throw the word around in mixed company at a black-tie dinner, however- but there are plenty of other words, non-offensive and otherwise, that you’d avoid in such a situation. As I keep saying, it’s about context.

[roger_thornhill]

When I worked for Hitachi in England in the 80s, the bosses themselves (i.e. the Japanese) used to refer to themselves as “Japs”. It was said that the word they did not like being used to refer to the Japanese was “Nip”.