Lenny Bruce said much the same thing regarding the N-word. Well, it does get used all the time. And it’s basically still offensive.
:rolleyes:
Are you really that dense? Or just that bad at humor?
What does? Did I say that I use the word? Did I say that the word is not insulting? No, and no. I acknowledged it is insulting. You even quoted it. Here is is again for the “wishfully” blind:
I even offered a way to strip the word of it’s insulting power. The idea—you do know what an idea is, don’t you, is for Japanese people to start using it, thus stripping it of it’s perjorative powers. Now, you are free to comment on the idea, improve upon it, shoot it down, or offer your own. Granted, you’d have to put your desire to look for a fight on hold for a few minutes and actually think things through. But hey, who knows, you might like it.
Now look at this entire post of yours. Two commentaries. The first needn’t have been made at all because you offer no answer to either filling in the blank for the person from Japan, or China. In the second you accuse me of not understanding that the term is insulting, even though you quoted me saying it was.
Dude, get a fucking life. Barring that possibility, try taking a class and learn what are honest debating tactics and what aren’t. Assuming, of course, you care.
I don’t think it is the same because the word serves no useful function except to insult, and by extension build a wall between those who can’t use it and those who can. Beyond that scope it serves no purpose not already served by other words. I don’t think the same is true of “Jap” and “Chinaman”. Do you?
Of course, having to use “a Japanese man” and “a Chinese man” isn’t that big a deal. But if I were Japanese, say, I thiink it would be in my interest to reclaim the word. I’d actually feel offended that simply truncating a descriptor would be an insult. If some kids spray painted “Jap” ioutside my house, why should I have to be more offended than some kid spray painting “Finn” or “Scot” or “Kiwi” outside someone else’s home? Now I fully understand why it is more offensive, but I don’t have to be happy about it and simply accept it, do I. Granted, this wold have to be done on a large scale or it woldbe for naught.
If you don’t realize that I’m making an effort to shooting it down, you are really hopeless.
I am willing to bet anyone else would realize that I do not consider the use of Chinaman to be an option.
When you said that it “odd” that the association was coming from just a derogatory term to the enemy in WWII, ignoring that it was used also on all Americans of Japanese desent is silly.
You don’t care that the continuous use of the term does not avoid the fact that it remains an insulting term, and I said before that you don’t care about what you say, but I see that you have no problem recommending the same to others.
I fail to have noticed where you suggested “Japs” should do this.
You’re whole post was just so… “gay.”
Unless you are Japanese or an American of Japanese ancestry that is indded what condescension is all about, convince first the Asian American Journalists Association (AAJA) http://www.aaja.org/ or the dicctionary even and then maybe you will have a point.
I intended it here, though it seems I should have been more specific.
I thought it would have been clear, as the Japanese are the ones with the largest interest in stripping the word of its power and they are the only ones who can send the rest of society the message (through their use of it) that it is no longer thought to be perjorative. Thanks for giviing me the opportunity to clarify.
Please feel free to expand on the point you are trying to make here. I cannot glean any meaning, yet you took the trouble to type these words, so they must be adding to the discussion in some meaningful way or were meant to be entertaining. Please explain.
The term Jap was not used in such a way at the time. There was no distinction between the government and the people. As far as Americans in the 1940s were concerned, there were both Nazis and “good Germans,” but every Japanese was a Jap. See John Dower’s War Without Mercy for a very good exploration of this.
Chinaman has never been a pejorative. It has, however, always been offensive. It is a (poor) attempt by whites to mimic what they perceived as the speech of Chinese speaking English. As such, it is dismissive. Note that there is no equivalently structured term for any other nationality.
Sorry. It’s a sore point with me and my 12-19 year-old kids. They say something is “gay” at the drop of a hat. I recoil when they say this. I know they don’t quite mean it in the way I take it, but still, it’s just as bad as when they say “nigger” or “kike” or “chink” or … You get the idea.
Yes, meanings change over time. Yes, perhaps a teen today doesn’t mean what I perceive as a formerly? racial/social insult. But that doesn’t mean that half the population of the world doesn’t view their term as an insult.
If you read the word “Jap” in a newspaper article these days, I’d be surprised. Whether a headline writer did it or a reporter, they’d be fired the next day. As well they should. And I’m sure you can find an example where they used it and they got away with it.
When you grow up in the Old South, they tell you something about this kind of thing. The art of being a host is to make your guest feel comfortable. NOT uncomfortable. If it means swallowing your tongue to keep from saying a word that they might find offensive but you don’t, then you swallow your tongue. I know this may not square with your idea, but it’s about being a mensch in polite society.
Actually, I agree with every single thing here. And it’s not just the Old South. Any where one is taught manners.
Acknowledging the distinction between perjorative and offensive, I agree with your first sentence. But how is it “a (poor) attempt by whites to mimic what they perceived as the speech of Chinese speaking English”? I can’t see it. And can you expand on your last sentence? I’m not clear on what you mean.
How about you? Is there a reason that you insist on being insulting in every thread in GD in which you participate?
Ratchet it back, a bit.
[ /Moderating ]
There is no other word in English that is composed of nation name + “man.” The construction was put together in the middle of the 19th century by people mocking some speech patterns of immigrant Chinese. It was used as an insult.
However, region + “man” isn’t unknown. Ask any Yorkshireman.
Agreed. It goes back to at least 1800.
BUT, it isn’t about a Nation and it’s peoples. Which is more likely to be racist.
Did anyone else think “Jewish American Princess” before “Japanese?” I grew up in an neighborhood with lots of J.A.P.s but very few Japs, so that’s always the first use to pop into my head . . .
(Both uses are hazardous in mixed company, by the way)
So? Is it really that far from Englishman or Frenchman? We take into account how the words roll off the tongue and sound to the ear and create suffixes to mean “citizen of”. We use “an Italian”, “a Spaniard”, “a Pole”, “a Finn”, “a German”, “an Aussie”, a “Dane”. Other than the “ian” suffix, I think these are all unique unto themselves. Of what relevance is the fact that “Chinaman” may also be unique?
I have no doubt it was use as in insult, but is there evidence that the word was coined the way you say? It seems to me that they needed a word to refer to people who were Chinese (in the “He’s a _______” construct) and started usiing the most obvious formulation. No?
Spoken like a true scotsman! 
http://www.scotsman.com/
I would expect to see a “chinaman” news if chinese today did not have an issue with the term.
“Chinaman” seems to be ok to use only if you sell “china”: