I’m not quite sure why DrDeth has considered China Guy’s post “harrassment,” as opposed to tough debate, but I do find the two following statements a lot more personal than are needed in this thread:
Ok, I am sorry for that, but “google vomit” is how previous dopers called research based solely on what one gets on the first google search with no interest on checking what the sources actually say, and this term was used by other dopers before.
And using the defence of “the post is my cite” is one of many reasons why that other doper got in the bad graces of the board.
But if you say so, I will abstain from using them in GD.
(I have to say though that it is curious to me why the smilie was ommitted from the last quote, as it happened it makes it look worse than it was, particularly now that we are in a different page)
Individually, either statement (with or without smiley) would have made it past the dreaded GD censors. Coming in nearly adjacent posts with the second post appearing to be a drive-by, I just wanted to make sure this thread did not get nastier than it had to.
Ok, I see.
I was beginning to suspect the google ad people complained, now I see ear grommers and nose trimmers. :smack:
Aw, c’mon DrDeth, don’t walk away mad.
Just because you would use the term only in the context of the Japanese government and military in World War II doesn’t mean there’s no historical context of using the term as a racial perjorative, right?
There are ample cites in this thread to show that Japanese-Americans were broadly painted as “Japs.” Would you accept that – in the United States – the term has taken on a special meaning that it may not carry in other English-speaking countries, or in Japan itself?
So you agree that some people might find the term offensive, and it’s not your intention to be deliberately offensive?
This is all about what my professors back in journalism school called “red flag” or “fighting words.” They meant “words that carry such a strong negative connotation that they are inherently inflammatory.”
We young journalists were strongly advised to avoid using these words. Not because it was politically incorrect (that term didn’t even exist when I was a student) but because the mere use of such a word could derail the overall perception of our work.
In other words, such terms don’t convey a message, they become the message.
Even now, two generations after World War II, there’s still a sizable group that find the word “Jap” to be offensive. (My wife calls it “degrading.”) You may continue to insist that the word is perfectly appropriate in the context you use it. But don’t be surprised if a lot of people find it unacceptable in any context.
I’ve heard the argument that the above proves that people don’t analyze things objectively. Personally, I think it proves that words have power above and beyond simple information. Using the right word in the right context adds power to an argument; a poor choice of words diminishes the argument.
Actual Japanese people do find it offensive. Name-calling is not a big thing in Japan, so labels aren’t really paid much attention, which means that most people don’t find it horribly insulting. However, I asked around the office and those I talked to pretty much agreed that they don’t like it. Even those who don’t speak English said that they would prefer not to be referred to as a Jap. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that most Japanese people don’t really care too much about the outside world. If it’s not news in Japan, it’s not news. Google fights aren’t going to prove anything unless you do searches of sites in Japan. Be prepared to read Japanese. Otherwise, forget about internet searches.
I personally find it offensive. I offer forth my use of “Jap” as a pejorative when I’m exceptionally and irrevocably pissed off at some cultural bullshit someone tried to pull on me, like telling me that I’m not allowed to take a look at a display piece, despite just seeing a Japanese guy handling one of the items less than a minute before with no comment or argument. However irate I might become, I would stop short of calling someone a Jap to their face unless I really, really wanted to start a fight. When I use it, I’m venting to another foreigner, not to Japanese people.
You could look at any Japanese usage of “Jap” as way to rob the word of its power, like the expatriate community’s use of gaijin to refer to themselves sometimes. The proper term is currently supposed to be gaikokujin (outside/foreign country person). Gaijin has been used mostly as a word for foreigner that has connotations of being specifically a European foreigner. It’s not normally used for anybody who looks Asian; they are called by their country name + the jin suffix, meaning person.
The feeling many of us have is that being called gaijin is kind of like being called a “gook.” We are all indistinguishable, and it doesn’t matter what country we’re from, or what kind of cultural or linguistic differences we might have, we’re all just gaijin. I’ve been called gaijin in ways that range from cute (my next-door neighbor’s 4 year old used to call me gaijin-san, or “Mr. Foreigner”) to rage-inducing (when an old fart remarked to a Japanese woman who accompanied me, ano gaijin no chinko ga dekai darô na [I’ll bet that *gaijin*'s got a big dick]). We use gaijin to refer to ourselves like African-Americans use “nigger,” and for much the same reasons.
Would I equate Jap, nigger, and gaijin to be roughly equal? Yes. Would I say that I’m more likely to find Jap offensive than a Japanese person? Maybe, it depends a bit on the person. Should you avoid using it except as an insult? Absolutely. One of my girlfriend’s worst memories of the US during her exchange program was when she was talking to a friend in Japanese and an American woman commented that, “You Japs should learn to speak English. You’re in our country now.”
From my point of view, my girlfriend’s, and many of the people I know, Jap is a term that is not nice at all. Insisting that it’s not a derogatory word is trying to say that your interpretation trumps people with actual experience with the term. Martini Enfield and DrDeth, while I like some of your responses in other threads, you’re arguing from a position of ignorance on this one. Let it drop.
Had dinner tonight with a few Japanese executives from a major Japanese automaker based in China. These guys have lived in the US and speak good english. Well a few beers into the dinner I did specifically ask what they thought about “Jap.”
answer was very clearly a racist insult. They said not everyone in Japan speaks English well enough to understand that it’s an insult. Almost every Japanese that spends time abroad encounters the word sooner or later, and it’s not welcome.
They laughed about a bunch of Japanese teenagers not caring about Jap and being beyond WW2. Since when do you ask teenagers their world views on anything and expect to get a reply representative of the population as a whole (and big rolleyes).
DrDeth, no doubt Jap means to *you * what you say it means. Trouble is you’re in a small minority and it means something else to a lot of people. I can give an example. I very selectively use the word “Gook” with a handful of friends I grew up with 25 years ago. We have all lived in Asia, all have varying degrees of fluency in at least one Asian language, most are married to Asians and raising multicultured kids. I use the word in a context that these few people understand perfectly, and it’s much more a reflection of our small town ignorant white trash racist roots and where we come from than anything else. That said, I know that very few people in the whole world would understand how I use the word, and therefore I never use it outside of these few people in private.
Or take the word Oriental. Sheesh man I have a *degree * in Oriental languages. I spent a lot of time and effort trying to understand why it’s now a bad word. There’s a 5 page thread and related pit thread on this subject from probably 5 years ago that I was quite the ass in. I can now understand why some people find Oriental derogatory, but I don’t “get” it. Doesn’t matter that I don’t get it. I can choose to use Asian instead of Oriental, and know that I will not deliberately or inadvertently cause offense or make someone uncomfortable. YMMV
To those who are asserting that Jap is not an offensive term, I’d like to see you go down to your local Japantown or whatever your international district is called and casually toss the word around a bit. “Hey, can I get a sixpack of that Jap beer? … Yeah, I’m looking for some Jap electronics. … I’d like the teriyaki special, I’m really hungry for some Jap food.” And then come back and let us know how it worked out for you.
If you don’t have the balls to do this, if you recognize on some level that it would be a bad idea but you continue to argue here that there’s no reason anybody should be offended by this usage, then you’re full of shit.
Most of us Issei, Nisei, and Sansei in Hawaii wouldn’t give it a second thought. Japs are foreigners. 
We don’t have a Japantown or a Chinatown where I live, but I’d have no trouble using the examples you provided above if I was in one outside the US.
I’ve often heard Asahi referred to as “Jap beer” (and not in a negative sense) when I worked in a bottle shop (liquor store). Jap Food? Again, lots of people here use that as a non-negative abbreviation for Japanese food (Sushi, Teriyaki, Teppanyaki…)
Dunno about Jap electronics- I can get those from pretty much any department store. Why would I need to go to Chinatown for those? 
I’ve got this really wild idea, how about you actually ask a Japanese friend or colleague
a) what they prefer to be called when referring to ancestry
b) what they think of the word Jap
c) even ask what they think of Asian versus Oriental
Please report back with the findings as I am really interested in what their opinion is.
Your location says you’re in Australia. So get cracking and come back with a full report.
Japanese, always.
As they were studying English, pretty much all the references to the word “Jap” come from propaganda films, the kind portraying Japanese with buck-teeth (or fangs) and exaggerated slant-eyes OR from dialogue from soldiers or sailors referring to “Japs” as the enemy. Overwhelmingly the print references are hostile, though they be from the distant past. When they encounter people using the term “Jap” it’s a warning sign that they’re dealing with 60 year-old warlike racist attitudes. They are familiar with people in their own country who can’t let the war go, and this is definitely not a positive association for them.
Many Japanese, even as educated as university graduates, have not traveled overseas significantly and are geographically naive. They tend to put nations into the category of “Japan” and “Foreign Countries” (with “America” being the English-speaking part of “Foreign Countries”). The absurdity of our own “Asian” and “Oriental” doesn’t really register unless you try to explain it. Then they just wonder how it makes sense to say “Asian food” when that could describe Japanese food or Armenian food, or use a word like “Oriental” that means “Iranian” when applied to rugs but Chinese-like when applied to people.
In general, the ones who know English and are semi-worldly try to align themselves with the attitudes and usages of educated English speakers.
If you read the rest of my post, you’d also see there’s no Asiantown where I live either. I’m not leaping into the MartiniMobile to drive to one, either- since that would be an all-day event at best, and also acheive absolutely nothing except using up a lot of petrol.
Look, ultimately we can debate this until the cows come home, and still be no further away from a consensus. We’ve been going at this for what, 3 pages now? Until reading this thread, I would have regarded “Jap” as a mere shortening of “Japanese”, and nothing more. However, seeing that a lot of people here feel differently (and quite a few don’t), I realise it’s not a good idea to use said word on this forum outside the appropriate historical contexts- but having said that, I really don’t see it as a word who’s mere use will cause a hush to fall on the crowd, have women faint, and parents covering the ears of their children.
And on that note, I think it’s time for some Green Tea.
I think we’ve reached a consensus on a couple of things.
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In the United States, the word still carries racist overtones from World War II and should not used in polite society.
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Outside the United States, it may be acceptable to refer to objects as “Jap” but it’s better to avoid using it to describe people.
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Pretty much every society has distinctive terms used to disparage particular groups of people. Even though the same term may be completely inoffensive in a different society, the use of the term in cross-cultural communication may lead to misunderstandings.
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Arguing that a term is not offensive to someone who is offended by the term isn’t going to win you any points.
Couldn’t have put it better myself.
“Very foolish it is to use the wrong word to a stranger; for though the heart may be clean of offence, how is the stranger to know that? He is more like to search truth with a dagger.” Mahbub Ali imparting wisdom to Kim in novel of the same name by Rudyard Kipling.