(yes yes I know, he has nothing on Lev Yashin as a GK:D)
The guy has so many pros that its a wasted of time just listing them so I am going to point out the cons.
One con
Unlike Pele and Maradona, he has not won a World and Continental tital. His immense club success is far greater then those players (Maradona’s is actually quite ordinary) but typically when you look at greats, the World and or continental titles are what people remember. There is a reason why DiStefano and Best (outside of the UK) are not brought up in these discussions.
OTH, he did reach two major international finals in the last year, and lost close matches, indeed one slightly different play in both matches, and the discussion would be over, we would be looking at a guy who was a World and Continental champion within a year.
I think the issue with comparing Messi with Pele is the vastly different types of careers. When Pele was playing, you did have South Americans going to Europe, but playing your entire career in Brazil was totally an acceptable career choice. And Pele was fantastic for Santos. It’s almost impossible to compare and I don’t know if you can say Messi’s club success is far greater than Pele’s.
Maybe a bit easier to compare to Maradona, but Maradona played most of his early career in Argentina. Though it is kind of hard to understand how Maradona never finished in the Top 3 of Ballon d’Or voting, even in '87/88 when he was fantastic for Napoli.
Johann Cruyff is usually mentioned in these discussions, and he didn’t win a WC or Euro Championship either.
But yes, Messi is a phenomenally gifted player and deserves consideration for “best ever player”. Cristiano Ronaldo must get a bit pissed off that he’s playing at the same time, as he’s similarly gifted.
I think C. Ronaldo has both a technical and physical edge over Messi, but Messi is a better team player. That said I still rate C.Ronaldo higher.
It’s difficult to compare players even of the same era though, if you think about George Best vs Pele, both had very different international, club and personal situations even though they were contemporaneous.
I think yes. I don’t have the historical knowledge to contribute much subjectively, but I thought Ronaldo and Messi were right up there for best all-time, and I thought Ronaldo was a little better to my eye, until I read this.
Very persuasive, to me, at least. I still would much rather see a game Ronaldo’s playing in, for moments like that little toe flick over the keeper against Armenia last month, but I no longer feel like there’s any arguing with Messi’s influence on the game.
What influence? He is impotent on the international stage. Zinadine Zidane easily eclipses him. That said, i completly agree with Asympotically fat. Put both CR7 and Messi on Wigan and see who would perform better. Messi meeds brilliant players around him to be brilliant; Ronaldo or Zidane can create their own chances.
CR7 has always played in top teams. He plays for Real Madrid now and before that he played for some club called Manchester United. His greatest international success came when he was playing with the likes of Figo, Deco, Rui Costa, Carvalho. He has been pretty ordinary since. In the last WC, Messi pretty much dragged the Argies to the final.
Zizou also played with Del Piero, Inzhagi, Ronaldo, Figo, Raul etc. And internationally he played with Dechamps, Desailly, Blanc, Barthez, Viera, Henry…
Their are a few players who have been the lone standout., Fabregas in the later part of his Arsenal career comes to mind.
[QUOTE=Baron Greenback]
Ah, so you are lowering your barrier of entry to “did well at a major tournament” rather than winning it?
[/QUOTE]
Well no, ut as I pointed out in the OP, Messi like Cryuff has come close to ultimate success, unlike say Best or DiStefano. Which is why they are considered differently.
Zidane is the one player I can think of who could pretty much win a WC through his own efforts. He was at his best in World Cups and France was mediocre without him/with him and his injured hamstring. I hate the French but he was the most dynamic intense player I have ever seen.
I need to modify my comments. I agree that Messi is world class and easily in the top 3 in the world. But the evidence shows that he cant carry a team on his back.
Messi’s success has all been with Barcelona. While I can’t say that he is simply a product of their system, his Argentina failures do bring him down a few notches. His Argentina teams have arguably had the best talent of any national team over the past decade. And yet, they’ve won absolutely nothing of consequence. They were shut out over 240 minutes in the most recent World Cup and Copa America finals. Just a moment of brilliance from Messi in each of those games and I’d be singing a different tune.
I suspect you are right about that. He’s just turned 28, and that’s about the age that good team captains/leaders should start to emerge. I don’t know if Messi has that type of personality though. Actually, come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen him interviewed.
If you compare CR7’s Portugal with Messi’s Argentina, it’s clear both teams have fundamental weaknesses. That said it is clear, sans CR7 or Messi, Argentina has a much better team than Portugal. If you look at the last 3 World Cup winners: Germany, Spain and Italy having a good functioning and strong back-to-front team trumps having is much more important than the level of the star player. So I would say the sum of the rest of the team have been more important to Messi and CR7’s WC success.
I think anyone would have to admit even though Portugal have some decent players and CR7 it would be a miracle for them to win the World Cup and that is no reflection on Ronaldo.
This would be the same fullback who was like a stonewall at the Maracana in 2014 Final.
[QUOTE=madsircool]
=Messi isnt even the best Argentine. Diego Armando Maradona was better, and better on the biggest stage…demons included.
[/QUOTE]
Hey if we are going by that standard, Kempas has them both beat…he single handedly won a WC Final, while both of them were marked out of theirs (ok, Burrachaga assist in 86 was awesome).
Co-signed. The Maradona put whole teams on his back and drove them to glory, something Messi is unlikely to ever do. Like lads, get in the back if you like - but I’m steaming to victory with or without you.
