The story has grown with every retelling. He played magnificently, but come one. They had Valdano, Burrachaga with Brown in defence. He was marked out of the final.
In 1990, he actually was a bigger influence.
But that second goal against England? (not the hand of god) where he dribbles 60 yards through the defense and scores? On footies biggest stage? Arguably the greatest goal ever.
Im shocked that there is absolutely zero love for Zinadine Zidane. He was another who put the team on his back.
By “really” do you mean you read my post somehow to mean that I don’t think Messi ever does anything interesting, or what?
Post up some Messi stories that have grown with the re-telling - let us compare the legends.
See the problem?
The 1990 Argentinian side were ordinary, and got to the final - so that would seem to underline the great Diego’s extraordinary influence. Being honest, though, I don’t recall him playing a great tournament (he might have done, it was a long time ago) - think it was more about him as an icon and just being there.
He’s kind of still playing ;). I can EASILY imagine the Messi stories from the last two months that’ll grow with re-telling, when he basically takes Boateng’s legs out from under him in the CL Final and when he took on 4 defenders by himself and scored in Copa del Rey.
I still can’t really believe either happened.
World Cups aren’t as important as they once were. Messi is playing in WC level competition every single year with the Champions League. It’s usually older pundits living in past eras who bring up Messi’s lack of WC win.
And not to turn this into a Messi v Ronaldo thread but both are probably on an equal footing. Messi perhaps with Barca’s form this year edging it for the moment. It’s impossible to fairly judge whether or not these two guys are the best ever. All I will say is there cant be many past players who were better than them. We are extremely lucky to have them play at the same time.
This is nonsense. The CL has some great players but not all the great players. Its also stunningly ageist. If anything, older writers are smarter because they have seen more players and experienced more in the game. The level of pressure in WCs is greater because you are playing for your family, your friends and your country. There is nothing like this in the CL. Also, besides maybe MAYBE a Barca Madrid or Bayern there are no other teams that are representitive of the national teams of the footballing powers. The German National Team of the 2014 WC would beat any club team.
It is arguable that there was far more talent on the field in the CL Final between Barcelona and Bayern Munich than in the World Cup Final between Germany and Argentina.
And if you could clone players, I’d likely take a full strength Bayern over a full strength Germany - not only did they have the best of Germany, they also have players like Arjen Robben and Frank Ribery.
Bayern also lost to Augsburg Moenchengladbach and Freiburg…something the GNT would not due. They had some of the best of Germany.
Germany played a lot less games as well. In a long season, interspersed with multiple cups, domestic and European, fatigue will lead to bad results.
Bayern > Germany
Not even in a parallel universe. GMT can call on hundreds of players if someone is injured…not Bayern. Also, BM could not have beaten Brazil…much less beat them 7-1. Then there is the small matter of BMs German players would on the whole play harder and better for Germany. BM is far too weak in the back four to deal with the Germany offense. And only 4 BM players start for Germany anyway.
This is relevant… esp look at the chart:
Thank you for the link. It was an interesting read. But the weakness in the authors argument is evident when his numerical analysis has both Arg and Bra better than Germany. Germany beat em both and would have shut both out but for a late garbage goal by the Brazilians. I like statistivcal analysis but we must compare apples with apples and club/international play is more apple/orange. Also, playing for ones country gives one a boost. In fact some players are far better apparantly at the international level (Podolski and Klose come to mind). The best and most fun way to resolve this conflict would be to have a Super Cup between the WC/EC winner and the CL winner in odd numbered years. With the tv revenue out there Im shocked this hasnt already happened.
The Ballon d’Or was only for European players until 95.
Disagree. There is a lot of overlap between the teams, but in addition to the Bayern lot, the Germans have Kroos (admittedly at the Bayern when he won the WC), Hummels, Ozil, Schurrle, Howedes. Not to mention Reus (who missed the WC).
A club team might be able to but the worlds best Center Forward. On the other hand, they might have to make do with an ordinary Full Back, because they cannot afford a better one. A national team of one of the major nations (like Germany, Brazil, Argentina and Italy) can call upon the countries best, and the best full backs in one of these nations the going to be amongst the best in the World.
Germany would beat any club side hands down. Ditto Argentina of 2014.
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The best and most fun way to resolve this conflict would be to have a Super Cup between the WC/EC winner and the CL winner in odd numbered years. With the tv revenue out there Im shocked this hasnt already happened.
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Would be a bit of a problem really, as many players would qualify for both teams.
Neither of those sentences are true.
Ronaldo has done everything he can with Portugal, dragging them to world cup and European cup semi finals, and almost single handedly dragging a rubbish team to the world cup in Brazil (hattrick in the play off remember?). But there is only so much one player can do, not with such a limited side like the current Portugal team.
And Messi most certainly did not drag anybody to the world cup final, that he was given the player of the tournament award last year was one of the biggest farces I’ve ever seen. He was anonymous past the group stages, (just like he was once again anonymous in the recent Cop America final), and it was the likes of Di Maria and Mascherano who got them as far as they did.
In 2006, he was playing in a team that included Figo and Deco. And his contribution was getting Rooney sent off. He played much better in 2012, but still he was helped by Nani and Postiga.
In the R16, it was his slicing of the Swiss defence that caused DiMaria’s goal.He was man of the match. In the QF, he again opened up the defence (making Kompany looklike a confused schoolboy) and which led to Higauin’s goal.
In the SF [del]kicked relentlessly[/del] marked by Vlaar. This was the one outstanding performance by Mascherano.
In the final, he opened up the German multiple times but the forwards did not take the chance.
In the Copa America final he cut open the Chilean defence by my count three times, with Augero missing two chances to score, and Higauin at the end, when Messi took the ball in his own box and cut past 4 defenders to make a beautiful pass to Higauin. He was also the only Argie to score a penalty.
He plays differently for Argentina than Barca, at the club he is basically a wide forward, he plays a lot deeper and center for Argentina.
Shall we see your posts before the WC to see what your predictions were? 
Brazil was the favorites. Argentina was also very highly ranked and since it was in South America, probably higher than they would have been.
Furthermore, the quality of the players doesn’t necessarily mean they play as a team as well as some others… or doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have gotten lucky somewhere along the line. For example, Costa Rica to the Netherlands to penalties - I’m sure the value of the players for both teams would have resulted in a vast gulf.
Furthermore, the WC Final was a very close thing. Argentina had its chances in that match as well. Just because Gotze scored in the 113th doesn’t mean that the ranking of Argentina over Germany before the game was ridiculous (furthermore the rankings included Argentina having Di Maria, who had gotten hurt a few games before then).
Here’s the fun thing… look at my 538 link again.
The value of Bayern Munich’s players in 2014 was HIGHER than the value of Germany’s players.
(Of course the value of Spain’s players were the highest in the world, but they were beaten tactically - everyone started to figure out tiki-taka, not because their players sucked)
Yeah, it’s not like we have to speculate about who “a club team” might be able to field at any given position. Bayern has a team; we know what players they have. In the 2014 CL they were starting 6 Germans, who the Germans obviously also had access to. They also started Alaba, Dante, Ribery, Mandzukic and Robben. If one those five is “ordinary” I’d like to know what a good non-German player looks like. They’re all among the very best from their own respective nations.
They also had Gotze and Javi Martinez and Rafinha and Pizarro to call on off of the bench if they wanted. The idea that Bayern Munich, of all clubs, has ever been sitting there hamstrung because they can’t afford to buy any real talent is kind of funny.