I did. Its interesting. But I disagree. The only thing Bayern have better then the Germans of 2014 was the forward line, and Mueller plays for both. Otherwise in midfield and the backline the Germans have it much better, the ratings are a bit hard to digest.
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It is arguable that there was far more talent on the field in the CL Final between Barcelona and Bayern Munich than in the World Cup Final between Germany and Argentina.
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Well, Messi and Macherano played in both matches. And as an example as how their is overlap between the best international and club sides you in Berlin you had the following World Cup winners playing.
Of course there is an overlap, but the thing is with the biggest sides, they can get the best players from multiple countries (as mentioned, Bayern has Holland’s Robben and France’s Ribery on their side in addition to the Germans - Barcelona has Argentina’s Messi and Mascherano, Brazil’s Neymar, Uruguay’s Suarez in addition to their Spanish core).
I’ll put my weight on Bayern or Barcelona over Germany. I haven’t seen any other evidence that will sway me otherwise.
And I’ll say that Messi has done quite well on those terms.
The reverse is also true. Bayern has Mueller,Boetang, Madrid has Kroos, Arsenal has Ozil and Germany has all of them. Barcelona has Messi and Mascherano, Man City has Augrero, United has DiMaria and Argentina has all of them.
Lets take Barca 2015 v Germany 2014. Lets have the CL/WC Final squads.
The Catalans have the better forward line, although the Germans have an excellent one with Klose, Mueller and Ozil.
The Germans have a much better midfield, Kroos, Schwinestiger and Kramer/Schurrle (Khadira was supposed to start but he got injured in warm-up) v Rakatic, Busquets and Iniesta. Iniesta is a world beater, but the others are merely very good. I can’t see them being able to defeat the Germans.
Backline is no match, the Germans are streets ahead. Its Lahm, Boetang, Hummels and Howedes as opposed to Dani Alves, Mascherano (who is a CM put in a Center back poistion), Pique and Alba. Nuer is the German keeper, whil ter Stegen is the Braca stopper.
And like I said, I’ve shown you some evidence that says otherwise (in which using somewhat objectivized criteria, Silver shows that Barca, RM, and Bayern are simply worldwide All-Star teams). Now you are just indicating your opinion in response. I simply firmly disagree. One country is not that much better than the collective mix of the best players in the world. I think Bayern wins 6 out of 10 times against Germany. Barcelona probably 8 out of 10.
And Barca compared to Argentina as you did is even more apparent. Man City has Aguero, Man United has DiMaria, yes - but Neymar is better than Aguero and Suarez is better than DiMaria.
And Klose, Mueller and Ozil don’t stand a chance in Hell against Messi, Neymar, and Suarez, in terms of front lines.
I just simply can’t see Germany winning against Barca. And you haven’t shown me any evidence otherwise - so this is just “Yes, No” back and forth.
Klose 16 goals in 24 WC games the alltime leading scorer
Muller 10 goals in 13 WC games
Ozil is really an AMF and supports the forwards
Messi 5 goals in 14 games
Suarez 5 goals in 8 games
Neymar 4 goals in 7 games
Messi and Neymar yet again disappointing in the latest Copa America
What some are forgetting is when German players play in the German system that emphasises their strength as a collective unit they are better than the sum of their parts. Their track record proves it. As was mentioned above, Barca couldnt handle the German offensive assault; the Germans are loads better in defense and GK.
Barca were 1W-1L-2D in La Liga and were knocked out in the quarters a year ago by Atletico Madrid.
Yes they Barca frontline are better. But they are not going to be facing Klose, Mueller and Ozil. They will face the backline of Howedes, Boetang, Hummels and Lahm, with Neuer as the GK. The Germans forwards will face Alves, Mascherano, Pique and Alaba. The Full backs, Alves and Alba tend to go far forward, they are going to leave acres of space for the Germans to exploit. If they don’t go forward, then the Barcelona attack is not going to get they feeding the need resulting in both Messi and Neymar playing significantly deeper making the jobs of the forwards even harder.
I can’t see them winning the midfield battle either.
But they will be playing the German frontline playing for Germany. Klose and Mueller and even Podolski play far better with their national side. Klose is the alltime World Cup goal scorer…Mueller is on the way to be the next. Cant see how you think the Barca front is better,especially since both Suarez and Neymar seem to have behavioral issues and Messi doesnt shine in the most important matches. I understand how they seem to be better based on their hype…but what about what these players deliver on the field for their sides?
Germany may be better in the midfield (though not that significantly) and the back, but not so substantially that arguably the greatest front line in the history of the sport (and that really isn’t an exaggeration - you have the three best players from South America on one front line, arguably James Rodriguez or Mascherano is better than Neymar, but I wouldn’t put either in front of him) is going to be left impotent. While Barca’s defense is good enough to deal with Mueller and Ozil (and Klose as a late sub).
And as Jimmy Chitwood pointed out, a team like Bayern has some of the best players from other countries in positions that it doesn’t have a German player. Robben and Ribery are the obvious ones. You argument comes down to that you think that the German players on the wings are better than Robben and Ribery, otherwise why would having the core of great German players and adding the best of other countries make a team worse than just having the best from one country?
Yes. But the forward line does not face the opposition forwards. They deal with the opposition defenders and midfield. That is where they Germans are streets ahead. At the same time the Barca backline is quite suspect, with Puyol and Abidal gone, while the midfield is a lot less potent then the Germans.
Whether or not Bayern are better than Germany was not really my point. My point was that the level of competition in the CL is far ahead of the old European Cup. The final stages of the CL and WC are both now played at a fairly similar level. It could be argued at the early stages the CL is in fact more competative than the WC. Lionel Messi is playing against harder opposition in his club season than almost all players of previous eras. I can’t remember Pele or Maradonna playing multiple games against real top class international club opposition each and every season. That is why Messi’s WC record is not as important as it might once have been.
What does that have to do with how good they are? The fact is Barca’s forwards are objectively more skilled and talented. The best club teams with nearly infinite resources are almost always gonna be better than a national team given the club team can in theory always replicate a given national team with enough money whereas the opposite is not possible. Yes, there are sometimes exceptions, but the premise is true in almost every field broadly speaking. The analogue would be arguing Apple or Google would be better if they could only hire Americans or Stanford grads. It just doesn’t make sense generally speaking, and the experts who have looked at the numbers agree.
Well that works double in the World Cup now. In the 1970’s and before playing against an African or Asian team if you were a topside meant basically improving your stats.
These days many African and Asian teams have World class players. When Messi faced Nigeria at the World Cup he played against a team with players like Victor Moses and Obi Mikel (a Champions League winner). Even against Iran,he was marked out ofthe match until the 92nd minute by a backline consisting of players who played in Europe.
Yes. If they had nearly infinite resources. No club has that, not even with the obscene amount of Gulf and Russian money has that.come into soccer in the last decade and a half. In theory a club manager could buy the best player in the world for each position. In actuality no one club has or ever will have the money to spend $2 billion in transfer fees and player wages to get all of the best players in the world for his position. In reality a club manager has to make do with what he can afford, whats available and whose is willing to come and thats before we look at regulations like financial fair play and home grown player rules. That means that you can have the worlds best in one position a excellent player in some other position and have to make do with mediocre ones for other positions.
Not the case with national sides from top nations, who can have their pick. Chances are the best german, italian, french, brazilian or Argentine player for one position is one of the best in the world for that position anyway.