Thanks for the tips on Truman, Carter and Clinton. I’ll look into them, seems interesting.
They had working class backgrounds, maybe, but neither Carter, Clinton, or Truman were working class at the time they became president.
I would have thought it was patently obvious that one can’t go directly from ditch-digging to the presidency. The answer to the question is obvious for any democracy if you parse it that way.
Your perspectivel is wrong.
I’m not sure a perspective can be wrong, but well argued.
You’re defining the term African-American in a way that is almost unique to you. It’s like if someone said “From my perspective, all trees are secretly plotting the destruction of mankind. Why aren’t there armies cutting down all the trees?” What else can I say but ‘Your perspective is wrong?’
Really? That’s your argument? That considering the term “african american” to have more meaning than just “black” OR “a mix of nationalities/ancestry” is akin to thinking trees are secretly plotting the destruction of mankind.
And you also know this is “almost unique” of me because you have polled everyone who has an idea of what “african american” means.
That’s almost as good as “Your opinion doesn’t matter because you’re not an American”. I say again, well argued.
sigh Because the vast majority (as in, most of society) have agreed that “African-American” means an American of African ancestry (mostly black).
I don’t think you realize how offensive your argument here is – that the only “true” African-Americans are those who came from a lower class background. African-American has to do with race. Period. You’re basically pushing the stereotype that all blacks are poor and lower-class. That’s offensive, insulting, and completely false. (Even if that’s not what you MEANT, that’s how it comes off.)
The reason people are pointing out the fact that you’re not in America IS relevant. You are commenting on a part of American culture, from the perspective of someone who seems totally ignorant, and even when those of us attempt to point out your mistakes, you refuse to accept them.
Perhaps had you read the entire post you would have gotten more out of it. It’s all the same to me, since it’s obvious you aren’t getting it anyway.
I explained this in my post (that you only read the first two lines of). Go back, actually bother reading what I wrote, THEN ask me this question if you are still confused.
I have not yet begun to be rude…just annoyed. Though annoyance is sliding into boredom, since I’m beginning to think that you are being deliberately obtuse about this.
I don’t do ignore lists. The sad thing here is you really have no idea what I was talking about in any of my posts, do you? Not even an inkling.
-XT
Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t realize this forum was for re-inforcing pre-existing ideas by using rethorical fallacies and excluding people of non-US citizenship.
I thought it was for fighting ignorance.
My bad.
Xtisme, what You don’t get is that I changed my opinion earlier in this thread, because of good arguments and reasoning from other posters. I just thought you were using un-productive and rather stupid methods of debate and wanted to point that out.
I am also not limited to discussing things from the perspective I hold, but will often argue points that I am uncertain of, or even disagree with, to test their validity. I like to think this makes me a better and more flexible person, and the opinions I do hold more legit. Your style of ad hominems makes me, and I would suspect others, want to disagree with you even if they don’t.
The point is, on this issue YOU are the ignorant one, and your ignorance does stem, in part, from the fact that you don’t live in America. The meaning of the term “African-American” comes from the culture of America, and if you aren’t intimately familiar with that culture, you can misunderstand it.
Oh for fucks sake…
I WAS ADMITTING I WAS THE IGNORANT ONE!!
I come here mainly to fight MY ignorance. I come here to LEARN and I do that by asking questions and debating points. Do you think that I do not realize that I know less about American culture and politics than most, not to say all, posters on this board? That is why I come here.
My point is that using ad hominem arguments and other fallacies is not a way of fighting ignorance, it is a way of driving away the ignorant. Which is the OPPOSITE of fighting ignorance.
Unfortunately, you don’t seem to want to learn, because you keep insisting that your opinion is the correct one.
I’m sorry, what is unclear to you about “I am the ignorant one”?
I honestly don’t know what the custom for expressing that one has changed my mind is on this forum, because I almost never see it. I change my mind here all the time. Sometimes on things I thought I was sure of, more often on issues where I was unsure or poorly educated (and they are legion).
So it’s not saying “I was the ignorant one”, it’s not accepting evidence and saying “Thanks, that was interesting I will look into it more to educate myself”. Do I have to do some special dance or wear a hat?
I’m starting to see why people don’t actually change their mind very often around here.
As opposed to saying you hadn’t read through my whole post, then asking me to answer a question I’ve already answered several times, including in the parts you didn’t read? How’s that working out for you? 
I don’t care what your opinion is on this one way or the other. You made an assertion about the American voter and I simply told you that your opinion on that is irrelevant. I realize that you don’t get what I was saying…the trouble is that YOU don’t understand that, well, you don’t understand what I was saying.
They are free to agree with me or disagree with me as they like…my guess is that more disagree than agree. All I ask is that someone reads what I’m actually writing, and then if there is some confusion about my intent they ask me to explain. You obviously do NOT understand the point I was trying to make there (especially if you think it was an ad hominem :rolleyes:), and you have refused to even TRY to follow up. It’s really you who are being dense about this.
-XT
The meaning of a term comes from how people use it. The reason “African-American” means black is because that’s what most people think it means. There’s no other way I can argue this.
“I self identify as African American”
As a matter of fact, let’s get the whole quote out of the way:
"Obama replies: “I self-identify as African American - that’s how I’m treated and that’s how I’m viewed. I’m proud of it.”
I note he does say “that’s how I’m treated and that’s how I’m viewed”, but he is smart to follow that up with “I’m proud of it” to head off the inevitable claims of him only saying he’s black because he’s forced to by society.
Those who have read his books know that it is pretty clear he identifies as black. Actually it’s pretty obvious, just like most mixed race people I know. (actually, all of the ones I know of identify as black, but I know there are biracial people who don’t).
I think he needed to be…nuanced in his talking about being black for a very good reason. I think a lot of white people that really liked him and wanted to vote for him would feel better never hearing him say the words, “I’m black”.
I understood it, I just thought it was ad hominem and (this is funny in a way I guess) irrelevant whether my opinion was irrelevant, and just an unpleasant and dishonest way of debate from you to continue pointing it out.
And I do understand every argument you’ve made. I just think you made them poorly and gave you feedback on that. Which I could have done better, without the snarkiness, I admit. I was irked. And you come back with more ad hominem again. My version of events:
I was wrong. I threw an idea out there to test the validity, it was proven wrong so I changed my opinion in accordance with the arguments I found most convincing. I was also insulted by what I perceived as unproductive arguments and wanted to point out the fallacies committed. I did so in a manner that was itself snarky and unproductive, for which I take responsibility.
But to me it now seems as you are not willing to accept any responsibility or admit to having done anything wrong, which is frustrating to me. It’s also a bit humiliating if you go somewhere to learn and admit you’re ignorant, not to have the admission received but rather be lambasted for ignorance. And that irks me as well, because I think fighting ignorance is a noble cause and to me, the attitude I experience is very counter productive if fighting ignorance is the goal.
Okay, this isn’t true. Let me get some cites:
Emphasis mine. Note that the picture on that page has Barack Obama in it.
More from wikipedia:
Again, emphasis mine.
Nowhere do any of those mention class or wealth. Remember, wikipedia is editable by anyone. If there was a substantial group of people that agreed with you, Stoneburg, don’t you think they would have changed it?