Ok, pick what you want to take seriously. Most bodybuilders don’t take researcher’s studies seriously because they have no REAL world applications, as they do not follow thier practice per se. Bodybuilders do follow a rigorous scientific methodology, they use what works, and throw out outdated material that has no results.
Muscle in a woman is healthy, women who take AS to cause hormonal changes and gain unnatural amounts of muscle IS unhealthy, but far from the Norm. Again, you seem to believe a common myth.
I cannot say that you are considered normal, as I have never seen you or your weight/height BF %, nor could I say anything about your friends wieght. Different people DO have diferent metabolisms, though it is possible to change them.
BTW, I too am considered "Hefty by conventional wieght standards (I.e goverment standards). I am 5’9 and weigh 185 lbs. My "Ideal weight should be 160 by what they want. However, the fact that I have around 15% bodyfat and can mostly see my abs, I would say that I am not indeed Fat. The weight/height forumlas you use are wrong, sorry. BF % is the only standard that should be used.
I agree that this is a bit of a hijack, and will contine this discussion in another thread if you like, or Via Email, but I doubt that you are willing to listen to anything but what you want to hear. Since you want to throw out realistic evidence that has been proven to work. Guess only out of shape nutritionalists and the Media only knows what they are talking about. :rolleyes:
I’m surprised because (almost) every poster on this board seems to believe that the opposite of overconsumption=diet. I believe the opposite of overconsumption is more activity (then, by definition, it will not be overconsumption).
My totally unscientific belief is that sedentary lifestyles are more to blame than overeating when one looks at obesity. Just for example, the prisoner study. How much physical activity were the prisoners doing? If they were doing quite a lot (for example, running or lifting weight every day or nearly so) then they would clearly have a difficult time adding weight, because their caloric needs were high and metabolism is primed.
Obesity may be tied into Leptin levels, which can be regulated by diet and/or exercise.
http://www.mercola.com/2001/feb/14/leptin_obesity.htm
Well … I’m glad to see this thread has been much more civilized about the issue of being overweight than a certain old thread starring Mark Serlin.
<ducking and running>
::Beats tracer about the head and shoulders::
Leptin isn’t the whole story, though, because when studies were moved from mice to humans the effect wasn’t as hoped.
There are a number of factors that contribute to overweight. Not all of them have been clearly determined. Not all of them have to do with how much is eaten, or what is eaten, or anything.
gigi, while I respect your experience, it appears to be the exact opposite of mine - when I stopped telling myself “you’re going on a diet tomorrow” I stopped downing an entire pint of Ben & Jerry’s in one sitting & so forth. Because I no longer had to worry that I wasn’t going to get what would satisfy me the next day, so I didn’t have to try and “oversatisfy” myself beforehand.
And yes, activity is the key. I’ve lost 10 pounds over the last three months (which I didn’t know until this weekend, BTW) and it’s largely due to a combination of two factors: I’m more active, and I’m off the diet merry-go-round.
YMMV.
Arrgh! I had a logical, concise post with at least four cites to show **Sister Coyote **that I disagree with her characterization that it is **not **common sense that weight is almost always gained by overeating and underactivity, and it got eaten by this (must be by now, it’s eaten so many posts) overweight board.
Please take my word for it; if you don’t, just do a Google search with the terms “obese health diet.” There are lots of places where it is just taken for granted that the cause of weight gain is overeating/underactivity. There are places where it is stated explicitly. There are studies that show the most effective weight loss program is a combination of diet and exercise, not just exercise and not just diet (this last was from the Annals of Internal Medicine, one of the cites I lost).
Saying dieting causes people to be overweight is like saying contact lenses cause bad eyesight. Don’t people go on a diet when they’re already overweight? And please don’t nitpick, we are talking about most fat people who want to lose weight. Let’s not get into the skinny people who can’t gain, fat people with thyroid problems, etc. It is just disengenous to say dieting may be the cause of obesity. Also if you do that Google search you will get lots of sites talking about the real health problems associated with obesity. And again, we’re talking about most people, not the special cases. It is true that yo-yo dieting will cause many people to gain back whatever weight they lost, plus more. I maintain that they were overweight before they ever went on the diet, though.
This is obviously off the point of is obesity a sign of food addiction, but I had to try to set the record straight for people who might excuse their obesity and not do anything about it because, after all, it’s genetic, or dieting causes it, or any other reason except for too much food and not enough activity! It seems that there are apologists for every condition or syndrome that allow people to not take responsibility for their own physical or mental health by blaming it on something out of their control.
And for the nitpickers, change “overeating” above to “too many calories,” which I think is more accurate.
Back to the original question: “Is obesity the sympton of addiction?”
First, don’t we have to agree on what “addiction” is?
I’d imagine it’s easily proven that physical addiction exists—most people agree that your body will do unusual things when denied cigarettes, heroin, et cetera.
But what about *mental * addiction? My girlfriend has seventy (yes, I just counted) houseplants in our two-bedroom apartment, and I currently own five cars. Neither of us would die without these things. However, our habits in these areas are obviously outside the norm, and we’d both have sharp reactions if they were taken away. Are we addicts?
This definition at dictionary.com seems to indicate that either type of behavior would constitute addiction.
I’m sure there are a multitude of causes for obesity, and one of them is probably eating too much. Maybe 1% of fat people eat too much. Or maybe it’s 99% of them. We could argue that point in another thread, but it’s not the question Mighty-Girl asked.
Let me try an analogy:
Are hard-of-hearing people hard of hearing because they owned loud stereos? Yes, some of them.
Did all hard-of-hearing people once own a loud stereo? No, of course not.
Is hearing loss a symptom of listening to loud music. Yes.
If you meet someone who is hard of hearing, should you assume he once owned a powerful stereo, and played it loud all the time? It may or may not be a good guess, but you cannot be 100% sure.
If I recall, Mighty_Girl did not ask any of the following questions:
Could fat people lose weight if they really wanted to?
Do fat people make good employees?
Should we uphold/enact laws requiring employers not to discriminate against fat people?
Again, those are all interesting questions, but I don’t believe they were asked here.
I realized I was a food addict when I saw my behavior toward food falling into the following sorts of patterns:
It=the substance or behavior
-think about It all day every day
-the day is made or ruined by whether I can or can’t get It
-seek It to the exclusion of relationships with people
-go to bed at night thinking about how I will get It the next day
-feel guilty and clean up compulsively after using It
-use any money I have to get It
-have to use It in secret or I know people would be disapproving
-use It as a substitute for dealing with feelings or problems
-act like I could change anytime but I just enjoy It
As far as the boss in the OP is concerned, I cynically say that he is being generous. Instead of saying he doesn’t want to employ fat people because they are lazy, lack self-control and would present a negative image of the company (as many think), at least he gives them the benefit of the doubt in naming it an addiction, which presumably is beyond their control.
At the same time, though, as I said earlier, an addiction can’t be used as an excuse because once you realize you have one, you know there are ways to work on it.
Sister Coyote, when I said “this is the last time”, I wasn’t even talking about “tomorrow I will be on a strict diet”. I meant, this is the last time I will eat a whole large pizza (meat lovers’s, stuffed crust 
) and a pint of B&J’s in one sitting and crave more. But any restriction on that I guess would have seemed like real deprivation, so I guess you’re right! 
(I’m getting better now)
AlaItalia, please email me so we can discuss this comment.
Otherwise, I’m done with this thread.
Overweight != sign of an addiction, as someone can have the “addiction” (which I still disbelieve in) and not be overweight.
gigi wrote:
Hmmm … it sounds not so much like the problem here is an “addiction” to It, but that you both crave It and view It as “bad” at the same time.
Would these patters still exist if you didn’t consider It to be “bad”? Certainly, the guilt would go away then, and you wouldn’t have to have It in secret; and It probably wouldn’t be occupying your thoughts all day and night because you wouldn’t have an internal tug-of-war going on over It.
Wouldn’t it be the same with other addictions? Crave + shame of social stigma seem to be the marks of an addiction. Think of a drinker, he drinks because he craves it (maybe physical need?) which leads him to hide it (because he/she knows is not well seen) which leads to anxiety that he/she calms by drinking.
Right. In and of itself food isn’t bad. It’s merely the fuel for our bodies and can be a nice sensual experience as well. It’s the obsession with it to the exclusion of other things that makes it an addiction, and the compulsion to eat even when there is no enjoyment of the food at all and more fuel is taken in than one could ever need. One knows based on others’ eating patterns that what one does is abnormal and extreme and yes, that does add to the stigma and the isolation of the act.
SisterCoyote, I’m sorry you are through here. I think the point that one can have the adiction and not be overweight is well taken. People compulsively exercise too, or purge, in addition to practicing a food addiction. Or their metabolism may be such that they can binge and not gain weight. I think it’s also fair to say that all overweight people are not food addicts. I’m not sure there is an absolute statement being made in either direction.
AlaItalia, I know what you mean about apologists for conditions, but as I said, this is not an excuse. I haven’t gone on bingeing and saying, “I can’t help it, I have an addiction.” The clear answer to that is, do something about the addiction. If anything, once you get over the denial and worry about labelling yourself forever as an addict, it’s a relief to realize there is something you can do about it.
Right on, gigi!
I wasn’t speaking personally to you or SisterCoyote but in general. I certainly was not stating that either of you or any other individual was “making excuses” or anything like that. You can see from my earlier posts I have an understanding of both addiction and obesity. I also understand about exceptions vs. generalities. I hope you both understand that and don’t take offense to my comments, which were purely opinion. I should never have gone so off topic, anyway. Please accept my apology for doing so and for any offense taken.
Oh gosh, not at all! But I did have to get past the point of using excuses myself, so I need to repeat the next step (getting help for the addiction) out loud as often as I can, if only for myself! Thanks for your gracious words!
I guess I’d better clarify a bit:
AlaItalia - I did take a bit of offense at your words, as I felt as though you were telling me that, effectively, I was “giving up” on my health. However, I have to admit that I had just spent the weekend with my mother (who I love dearly, but who is toxic for me in the extreme) and may have been a bit more “tetchy” than usual.
And that is why I’m stepping away from the thread. Not because I’m conceding the arguement (I’m not ;)) but because I can’t approach the topic rationally instead of emotionally at the moment.
No Blood, no foul.
MightyGirl I suspect your friend’s views on hiring really fat people are quite widespread, although few will admit it.
I have been overweight since the day I was born, literally. I currently need to lose over 100 lbs.
Am I addicted to food? Yes, to an extent. My problem is sugar. Everything else can rot as far as I care but in the morning the first thing I want is something sweet.
However, I do not exercise, and that has a LOT to do with my problem. Why? I’ll be honest. I’m lazy.
Yeah, I said it.
I also have ADHD, which no, is not an excuse. However when I am medicated I am actually able to stick to a good eating plan and exercise and stay focused.
Unfortunately I don’t have 80 bucks a month.
I think MOST … not all, but most fat people, either consciously or unconsciously, stay fat to keep people away.
If people don’t like you and you’re fat, you can always blame it on them.
If they don’t like you and you’re thin, the problem must be you.
Also I’d daresay most fat people don’t believe they are worth the effort it takes to completely overhaul one’s eating habits.
In some ways I’d rather be a drunk than overweight.
You don’t have to drink vodka to live. There is NO way to escape eating, though.
Can I set forth a theory here without everyone getting all huffy?
I’m going to generalize here.
As far as fat people go, fat white women have it the hardest, and I’m not just saying it because I am one.
Take black people. They are probably, as people, the least most superficial people on earth. Almost every fat black woman I have ever known has had a great attitude and never gave her weight a second thought … and none of them seemed to get dumped on by their family like me and my fat white friends do.
White people put soooo much emphasis on weight, though.
I have found that men in general get EXTREMELY offended at seeing a very overweight white woman.
I think it’s because women are expected to be pretty ornaments … and when they see a woman that is apparently refusing to be one, they get mad. Why isn’t she looking her best for them!? How dare she?
Just a thought.
I’ll agree to most parts of that theory, WV_Woman. Let me put forth another theory… maybe it’s just an idea.
Fatphobia is the most rampant form of discrimination in our society nowadays. Racism was the big problem - and still is to an extent - until the past 20 years or so. Racism against blacks have, for the most part, has been stamped out, and I almost believe there’s counter-racism now, but that’s the topic of another thread. Racism against people of asian decent is slowly starting to go away as more and more asians become prodominent figures in society. Just to be fair to all races, there is a bit of racism against whites, but that’s not widespread as well. However, open any medical journal, or weekly news magazine, and there’s sure to be an article about America becoming fatter, which leads to fat having an adverse effect on national health, economy, etc etc. It’s one thing to be looked down upon for something, but it’s quite another to be looked down upon AND be blamed for a failing economy =). The discrimination against overweight people is even worse, in some ways, than racism ever was. This is evident in the way overweight people are basically brainwashed into believing they have to be thin in order to fit in with the rest of society. Find me an old black male, who lived through racism, that would say he felt he needed to be white. It’d be hard to do, I think. Hell, if you want proof that it’s brainwashed into people to be thin, look at the numbers of teenage girls, and to an extent, guys, that become belemic or anorexic just to become their idea of thin.
As my tie in to this thread, of course you can be addicted to food, but I think more overweight people are addicted to the idea of being perfect in society’s mind.
BTW, as further evidence of the disdain of the obese/overweight/etc, from the people that have been argueing for food addiction and basically speaking with ill-regard towards the overweight, I hear no tones of sympathy coming from them. If it is an addiction, why is no one sympathetic for them? Instead, I hear disgust. Why is it we can take an alcoholic, belonging to a group that regularly kills others, in and provide him care and emotional support, but we have problems doing that for the overweight?
Just a thought.
I, for one, don’t WANT sympathy, or pity.
I just want to be left alone and judged according to my character.
As a teenager I just wanted to go to school and go one day without a nasty comment, or walk down the street without having comments shouted at me by passing cars, or being spit on. (Yes, it happened. Twice.)
People have biases. Anyone who says they don’t are lying. I don’t care if someone has a problem with fat people, it’s their right and it’s not my job to change their mind.
Re: bulimia. It is only by the grace of God that I didn’t become bulimic. I tried several times to make myself throw up, but I never could. If I had I definitely would have gone down that path.