I love The Wire but unfortunately have seen only Seasons 1 & 2. I like where Omar Little on the witness stand says:
“Just like you, man. I got the shotgun … you got the briefcase…”
It is rather amusing that **Dio **attention-whored all the vitriol from **Omar **to himself, isn’t it?
All someone has to do is mention his daughters and his douchefuckery will ensue until the thread drops off the front page.
You do realize that a miscarriage out of the blue that results in a trip to the ER and a hospital bills is at least one order of magnitude greater than getting an abortion, right?
Let’s say, hypothetically, she wanted to terminate the pregnancy but, before she could schedule an appointment/get the necessary cash on hand/whatever she suffers a miscarriage. She is no longer charged the (relatively) low sum for an abortion, about $500-700 according to a quick google, she is charged the cost of a miscarriage, again, according to a quick google, ranges from $3,000-6,000.
With no insurance and, presumably, dire financial straits is it any wonder that she is asking if the men is obligated to help her? It’s not due OMG, SHE’S A MANIPULATIVE BITCH!!! but because she is broke and looking for any potential resources to pay this bill.
It’s not her fault, either, but she is the one who will be hounded by the bill collectors, who’s credit will be ruined, and who will shoulder ALL the consequences of a sexual act that required two people. While he is legally off the hook, the father/sperm donor is a douche for not helping out, and for running at the first sign of pregnancy. Clearly, he isn’t going to man up and act responsible on his own, so the only possible recourse is to ask if the legal system can compell him. No, it’s can’t, not in these circumstances.
And frankly, I don’t think you appreciate the hell uninsured patients go through. Some years ago I had to get some stuff done when I was completely uninsured. I did all the responsible stuff. I shopped around (good fucking luck getting ANYONE to admit to how much anything costs medically!), I negotiated, I finally wound up going somewhere where the hospital policy was self-pay (cash) patients pay 40% of the listed “retail” price. I got that in writing. I went in. I paid in advance entire bill. Got my stuff done. Got a receipt.
Six weeks later, I get a letter saying I only paid partially and threatening to send me to collections. I called up accounting, who gave me shit because I had no insurance company listed (one drone actually said “how can you NOT have insurance?”), at first refused to deal with my account until I gave them an insurance company, which didn’t exist, or a Medicaid or Medicare number, which didn’t exist. Finally convinced them that yes, I really was uninsured, in which case they automatically threatened me with collections. I said I had paid the negotiated price of X. They said there was no such negotiations, that there was no “Cash patients pay 40% policy”, and threatened collections again. I faxed the written documents. They said they’d take it up with their legal department and get back to me.
Three weeks later, another threat-o-gram. Another call to billing, pretty much like the first.
Three weeks after that, another threat-o-gram. Another call, but I persisted and it got bumped up to the hospital VP of finance who basically said “you’re right, you paid in full at the time of service. I’ll go straighten out accounting.”
Two months later, another threat-o-gram. Called billing again, they apologized, said it was the computer’s fault - and hey, my insurance company isn’t listed, who’s my insurer? What, how can you not have insur… bumped it up to the VP again, who apologized again, said it wouldn’t happen again. I said, uh-huh, can I have that in writing, please?. Very nice letter arrived a week later, basically stating I was off the hook, so sorry for the inconvenience.
Six months later, I get a threat-o-gram saying I’m being sent to collections due to failure to pay the balance on my bill. After I calm down enough to speak coherently, I call up the VP directly. Explain I have gotten this letter. Remind him of the letter he sent me. Said if it isn’t straightened out for good this time I am getting a lawyer and suing their asses for whatever the lawyer can come up with, but starting with fraudulent practices and harassment. It better fucking NOT show up on my credit report, EVER. It is up to THEM to straighten this out, pronto, or yes, I will call up a lawyer - here’s his name and number, you can call to confirm this is a genuine law firm and not just me blowing smoke up your ass - and yes, I will sue you, and I will win because not only to I have all the agreements in writing, I have proof I paid in full the day I was there. So cut out the bullshit.
After that, no more problems. But that took how long? Welcome to being uninsured in America, where even when you’re responsible and do everything right, you get threatened and told you’re wrong. THAT is likely what she is facing. And YOU’RE criticizing her for seeking any help she can to avoid that particular brand of hell. Fact is, our society does take your opinion - if she had had a baby there might be help for her, but because she miscarried she’s on her own for costs that may well cost as much as a delivering a baby but to hell with her - it’s not anyone else’s “fault” so it’s her problem. Fuck her if she goes bankrupt, she should have been more responsible… by… what? Not having a miscarriage? Not her fault, either. But because she didn’t produce a baby there will be no help for her, at all.
In short - sure, it’s a woman’s “choice” but society sure does make it advantageous for a woman to choose to keep a kid, by rendering financial help, but withholding all help if she chooses not to, including making it difficult to obtain an abortion in many areas. And if she miscarriages, fuck her, she didn’t produce a baby. Either way, she gets scolded, called irresponsible, and basically pissed on. It may be legal, but it’s not right.
Your second paragraph acknowledges the ethical responsibility–“shame,” “man up,” and “50% responsible”–that the first one denies.
I said exactly what I meant to say: ethically the father should contribute. But he has no legal responsibility to do so.
Legally I shouldn’t swim in waters posted “No swimming” but if a kid is drowning, I’m going to jump in and save him. Legally I shouldn’t trespass on posted property. Ethically I would trespass in order to save a trapped animal.
Make no mistake about it, there is a heavy cost to society to care for children whose parents are emotionally and financially unable to care for that child. “Rendering financial help” to take care of the youngest and most vulnerable members of our society is what we do because we are a civilized society. But that doesn’t mean that the parents don’t deserve to be criticized. They do. Whether the condom broke, or they mistimed their cycle, or they were just in lurve doesn’t negate the fact that what they created a child that they were not capable of fully taking care. And that is shameful. If you can’t come up with $3k to cover ANYTHING, including your own emergency medical bills, then you aren’t ready to feed, clothe, shelter, educate, innoculate and care for another human being.
I feel sorry for the original OP in this matter. It’s bad enough that the first thread went sideways, but to drag her back into the limelight (albeit indirectly) through this thread is rather unnecessary. THat’s not intended as an opinion on the worthiness of the pitting, merely the unfortunate collateral result of this thread.
When someone is down, you offer them your hand, you don’t kick them in the nuts and call it their fault.
The most upsetting thing about all of this is that Dio apparently has so many accomplices in his evil plan to BORE ME TO FUCKING DEATH.
But you said Dio was right in denying that.
I’ve noticed that after reading one of his posts, I find myself saying “wow, I’ve no doubt someone is going to pit him for that.”
That was one of those posts.
Self-righteous doucher IMHO.
Dio is as usual too blunt and borderline rude, but I agree with him 100%.
Right - but here’s the rub:
Let’s say I get pregnant. Yes, I’ve been married 20 years and all, but right now I couldn’t come up with $3,000 to save my life, much less to pay for anything else. Really, no joke - check out the “how to fix a zipper” thread I started because I had zippers problems on a pair of jeans and I didn’t have even $20 for a fix or a new pair of jeans. So, anyone, me, in my 40’s, I get pregnant.
There are a half dozen charities in my area that would happily fall all over themselves if I chose to keep the baby, providing food, clothing, even shelter if necessary. If I was willing to give the baby up for adoption even better (as long as there is nothing wrong with baby, of course…). But if I wanted an abortion?
Fuck you, honey, that’s on your dime - except I don’t have $300 for that. NO ONE gives an abortion for free.
So how much fucking choice do I have under those circumstances, really? None really - without money I can’t get an abortion but boy howdy do I get help, even rewarded, for popping out an accidental kid!
You’re making an argument for state subsidized abortion (which I am for), but not for forcing people to pay for miscarriages they had nothing to do with.
Forcing him to pay? That’s not the issue. This is another example that proves there’s a difference between being male and being a man. A man would provide for those women he left in a bad position for knowing him, whereas a male would run to the next victim.
He didn’t pay jack for the the pregnancy he was 50% responsible for, either.
The dead fetus was 50% his biologically.
Personally, I’m all in favor of universal single-payer health care which would solve the lady’s problem entirely, at least in regards to paying for the costs of the miscarriage. That way we could all “enjoy” a few pennies of the pain.
You are confusing being a man with being an indiscriminating cash dispensing machine. A man provides for the people within he has kinship relationship. Fucking doesn’t make someone family.
A man is obligated to provide for his offspring, but he is not obligated to recompense the incidental medical bills of every woman he fucks.
A man has zero percent ownership or responsibility for a fetus. A fetus is part of a woman’s body. A man has no responsibility unless and until there is a baby, and then his responsibility is only to the baby.
I agree with you, as someone who is also rabidly pro-choice. But I think the argument others are making is that the “gentlemanly” thing to do is for the man to help the woman out if possible since he is part of the reason she is in that predicament in the first place. He is of course not legally obligated to do so though.
It would be the decent thing to do, yes, but I’m uncomfortable saying he’s ethically obligated. If he cared about the woman, he would do it, but you can’t obligate men to care about the women they sleep with.